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  • 1990m3
    replied
    I just went through this fuel cell Install. For a racing organization to allow it to be non fully enclosed like that is improbable, you are lucky to have passed tech. I like the cover you made, no question, but it wont fly in either of the 3 organizations I reviewed the GCR for prior to Install.

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  • curtis
    replied
    Update.... I purchased the atl in tank surge tank with lift pump and installed it this past weekend. I noticed the car started quicker due to fuel pressure building up faster. Ill be racing Daytona this May 5-6 to see if helps the starvation problem.

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  • curtis
    replied
    Ttw18, I made some measurements, gave my fabricator friend my fuel cell and then he cut and water jetted the cover out for me.

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  • ttw18
    replied
    Curtis, did you make that cover/tie down for your cell? Looking for a way to secure mine.

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  • jimmy p.
    replied
    Back when I did mine I spoke to a US Bosch Motorsports distributor when I bought my 044 pump (they were not as commonly available at that time), he told me the '044 pushed much better than it pulled which is why many people use a lift pump with it depending on its location relative to the fuel supply.
    He said if you mount it below your fuel cell with a one way valve on the feed side to maintain prime you can run it without a lift pump.
    Thats what I did (tried) and have been running it like that since around 1998.
    For all I know it might have worked just as well in the trunk above the cell, I just have never tried it there.

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  • ttw18
    replied
    Does it really matter if your fuel pump is below the cell level if it still has to come out of the top then down through the trunk? I can't argue with the results as you have shown it to be effective. Just thinking. I will be using an external surge tank so I think I will mount both pumps somewhere in the trunk.

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  • jimmy p.
    replied
    I know a lot of people use lift pumps including the factory back in the day (my Gruppe A car has a Facet),,, but in the name of simplicity I figured I would try mine on the club race car without and see if it worked. If it did not I could always easily add the lift pump in later.
    With my mounting config of my '044 below the cell level I have never needed a lift pump.
    The factory mounted the '044on the trunk floor (above the cell) so thats why I assume they used / needed a lift pump.
    Last edited by jimmy p.; 12-12-2017, 11:20 AM.

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  • ttw18
    replied
    It seems like a lot of people use the round cylindrical facet pump (red top) as their lift pump. facet doesn't; market it as a lift pump but say that it can lift up to 24 in. This would be sufficient when using a well cell. I did notice that they have a line of pumps, designed specifically for lifting fuel called duralift http://www.facet-purolator.com/dura-lift-pumps.php. Anybody use this? Would it be a better choice or am I 'trying to fix what ain't broke'?

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  • jimmy p.
    replied
    I cut the foam pretty close. It holds it in place pretty firmly.
    I just traced around the surge tank with a razor knife.

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  • curtis
    replied
    Originally posted by jimmy p. View Post
    Curtis I may have been misleading, mine isn't actually in the "middle" (true middle) of the cell (centerline fore/aft - L-R)
    Mine is centered directly under the line of the supply / return hoses so that they go straight down into the surge tank.
    That shifts it a bit rearward of center, but I did not place it at the extreme rear wall of the cell.
    It took me redrilling my plate as I posted above to get those extreme S bends out of the lines.

    I don't know if I have any recent pics of my cell but I also rotated the fill plate 180 from standard orientation (how yours shipped) and then added the two additional holes for the lines I wrote about.
    That move moved the surge tank rearward and took out any bends at all.
    I now have a few holes that are capped and unused. It looks a little silly but it works much better.
    Hindsight being what it is I would have just bought the cell with a blank fill plate if they offered one,

    If I cannot find any recent pics I'll take some and email to you when I get home in Jan.
    Ok I understand Jimmy. As soon as I get some free time I will drain the tank and try to reconfigure the feed and return hoses and check all is functioning ok.

    When you cut the cell foam for the surge tank did you cut it so it was tight against the surge tank or did you cut it loose with room on the sides? I was concerned the foam being to close to the trap doors may interfere with them.








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  • jimmy p.
    replied
    Curtis I may have been misleading, mine isn't actually in the "middle" (true middle) of the cell (centerline fore/aft - L-R)
    Mine is centered directly under the line of the supply / return hoses so that they go straight down into the surge tank.
    That shifts it a bit rearward of center, but I did not place it at the extreme rear wall of the cell.
    It took me redrilling my plate as I posted above to get those extreme S bends out of the lines.

    I don't know if I have any recent pics of my cell but I also rotated the fill plate 180 from standard orientation (how yours shipped) and then added the two additional holes for the lines I wrote about.
    That move moved the surge tank rearward and took out any bends at all.
    I now have a few holes that are capped and unused. It looks a little silly but it works much better.
    Hindsight being what it is I would have just bought the cell with a blank fill plate if they offered one,

    If I cannot find any recent pics I'll take some and email to you when I get home in Jan.
    Last edited by jimmy p.; 11-28-2017, 08:35 AM.

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  • curtis
    replied
    Originally posted by jimmy p. View Post
    Your install looks pretty similar to mine.
    Have you verified your pickup line is cleanly making it to the bottom of the 3 door tank?

    The standard fill plate has the lines quite wide for the 3 door surge tank, If you center it in the cell they have to make a fairly aggressive S bend to get down into it.
    I redrilled new holes in my fill plate so the pick lines go straight down into the tank.
    Not saying thats your issue, but I would verify you are getting your pickups to the floor of the surge tank.

    Also make sure none of your doors are hung uo / open.
    With the same setup I am able to pretty much run mine dry.

    On a side note I am surprised the cell with the perforated metal hold down passed SCCA tech.
    I am an SCCA racer as well.
    I had to make a 090 "hat box" to go over mine to satisfy the metal box rule as the outer shell of the cell is not compliant without a metal box (at least at my last reading of the rules).

    PS: your install looks great. I'm sure there is something simple causing your starvation issue.
    Jimmy, that will be my first thing to check since I noticed the lines bending as I put the fill plate on due to the length of them.

    I didn't place my surge tank in the middle I placed the surge tank at the back of the cell according to ATL suggestions after I cut a section of foam out for it to drop in.

    I will have to look into SCCA rules about the box, thanks for pointing that out. I passed annual tech earlier this year when I didn't have the new cell so it hasn't gone through tech since.

    Thanks again for the advice Jimmy!!!!!

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  • jimmy p.
    replied
    Your install looks pretty similar to mine.
    Have you verified your pickup line is cleanly making it to the bottom of the 3 door tank?

    The standard fill plate has the lines quite wide for the 3 door surge tank, If you center it in the cell they have to make a fairly aggressive S bend to get down into it.
    I redrilled new holes in my fill plate so the pick lines go straight down into the tank.
    Not saying thats your issue, but I would verify you are getting your pickups to the floor of the surge tank.

    Also make sure none of your doors are hung uo / open.
    With the same setup I am able to pretty much run mine dry.

    On a side note I am surprised the cell with the perforated metal hold down passed SCCA tech.
    I am an SCCA racer as well.
    I had to make a 090 "hat box" to go over mine to satisfy the metal box rule as the outer shell of the cell is not compliant without a metal box (at least at my last reading of the rules).

    PS: your install looks great. I'm sure there is something simple causing your starvation issue.

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  • curtis
    replied
    Pics
    Attached Files

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  • curtis
    replied
    So I installed this setup as described with the exception of the O44 pump and filter location. I placed the pump and filter on the vertical right rear passenger seat area underneath the car. Basically where the back of your heals would be if you were sitting in the rear seat. I placed it where if you were to remove the factory lift pump access panel you could see both the pump and filter easily in order to service both without going underneath the car. Also being sure to mount the pump as low on said panel as possible to be as low as or a little lower than the bottom of the cell.
    The car started and ran perfect so off to Sebring I went for an SCCA weekend of racing! For practice, qualy and a 20 min sprint race I ran approx 10 gallons the car ran flawlessly. My next race was a 30 min sprint so I put a few more gallons in and went for it. Much to my surprise on the second to last lap in the middle of turn 17 which if you are familiar with Sebring is a hard, long and bumpy right hander it starved for fuel????? It repeated starving on the last lap in the same corner so I soft pedaled it on the cool down lap then into the pits. Wanting to know how empty the cell was I proceeded to fill the cell with 5 gallons then as I was pouring the second 5 gallon fuel jug the cell overflowed after only 3 gallons went in? If my math is correct that means there was approx 4 gallons left in the cell?????
    Not sure what the issue may be considering I have the ATL 3 door surge tank, one way valve etc.....Am I missing something?

    Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated.

    After looking It seems I can buy and fit all the individual pieces for a low pressure lift pump assembly into the existing 3 door ATL surge tank if necessary.

    Thanks!!!!!

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