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  • BMW CCA Club Racing Task Force Statement

    I received the following in my inbox today.. so...


    All tire kickers, complainers, whiners, wannabes, bench racers, and I-would-but-my-car-doesnt-fit-where-I-want-and-even-if-it did-I-probably-wouldn't-join S14 owners, please take note.

    THIS IS YOUR OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE YOURSELF HEARD REGARDING STOCK, PREPARED, AND MODIFIED BMW CCA CLUB RACING CLASSES.




    [This announcement is being sent to all Club Racers - It is not unsolicited email]

    We, the members of the newly formed BMW CCA Club Racing Rules Task Force (BMWCCACRRTF for short...), would like to thank the CR Management for recognizing the need for an overview and update of our rules, and selecting members of our group with a wide range of technical knowledge and experience to fill this need. Our mission is to work on the behalf of all the Club Racers and potential Club Racers we represent, to produce well thought-out changes with a gross positive effect for all involved, with a focus to increase fun, participation, affordability, and competitiveness, in that order.

    First and foremost, our major focus in all our efforts is stability for existing participants. Hopefully this puts some people at ease.

    More specifically, we are limiting the scope of our work to the car-specific section of out rulebook. Additionally, we will not be addressing any of the rules in our two spec classes – Spec E36 and M3 Touring. These rules were created and modified with feedback from participants and we feel the solid structure for stability and participation is already in place.

    We will be very lightly addressing issues in the existing Prepared and Modified classes. Again, with the vast majority of participation coming from these two classes, we feel the basics are solid. We will look at items that are ZERO to EXTREMELY minimal in cost to implement and generally to create fewer holes or idiosyncrasies in the existing class philosophy. We will also be looking at a way to better integrate newer models into our existing system WITHOUT upsetting the competitiveness of existing models, who make up the huge majority of our racers. There will be no performance roll-back and the performance of current cars will not be changed in this process. Again, consistency for our participants is our guiding force.

    The one area we intend to focus the majority of our efforts is the currently almost non-existent Stock class. Created as ground-level entry point approximately fifteen years ago, Stock class no longer reflects industry technology and parts availability, or the level of a DE car that would enter Club Racing. Our restructuring of this class will represent a more current and accurate entry level car, similar to dedicated track cars (but not necessarily racecars) driven by A students, instructors, and BMW CCA Race School participants. Modifications will be limited in several areas including (but not limited to) engine, brakes and aerodynamics to control costs and retain reliability. The new rules will additionally provide consistency between Stock and Prepared preparation levels to allow more fluid growth and movement within our program; two distinct levels of build and operating cost will appeal to a wider range of participants and budgets.

    When last asked, existing active Stock class racers supported this philosophy, but we will be consulting with them through this process. Club Racing was built on a philosophy of inclusiveness and we will reflect this in our work.

    Hopefully through our actions we will uphold the trust placed in our group to better our series both now and in the future. After a review of the existing rules based on the above guidelines, we will work to define our direction with more specifics and then gather feedback from Club Racers past and present, as well groups we have identified as likely future participants. While we are aware that a large group will never have 100% satisfaction, we will be working hard to meet the needs of our diverse group and we will need your feedback through the process to help guide us.

    James Clay
    BimmerWorld - Race Proven Performance
    http://www.bimmerworld.com/
    http://www.bimmerworldracing.com/
    http://www.powerflexusa.com/
    877.639.9648



    We now return you to your regularly scheduled complaints ( after the fact) that you were not heard.
    Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 03-01-2010, 04:15 PM.
    Mark Williams
    Dallas, TX

    Nothing says "welcome to the neighborhood" like a search... oh wait... looks like they are all gone! :rastajake:

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  • #2
    interesting... so no one at all has any input ?
    Mark Williams
    Dallas, TX

    Nothing says "welcome to the neighborhood" like a search... oh wait... looks like they are all gone! :rastajake:

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    • #3
      I don't race, so no input in that regard.
      I do the HPDE stuff.
      The S14 engine sounded great, the car was fast etc.
      After a spun rod bearing, and the heavy cost of a DIY rebuild, I will no longer use an S14 to track. Shame though.
      I'll use a much more common S52 for track. If the car had been a cream puff, I would have retired the chassis from track duty as well.
      So perhaps it is the cost that has silenced the E30 s14 racers.
      There are cheaper avenues now any way.
      spec E30 and Spec E36 come to mind.

      m

      Comment


      • #4
        Well,,, I didnt comment,,, because I dont have a BMWCCA CR license, so they dont want my opinion. They only want the opinion of those who already have a license.

        Mmark.
        I did a cost breakdown on S5x vs S14s and I cant see how an S14 costs more to rebuild than an S5X.
        It costs more to rebuild an S5X than an S14,,, which makes sense,,, there are more parts.
        I took the time to cull typical parts costs from various internet paarts sources and show them side by side.

        In fact,,, I believe part for part, the S5X parts (except 3 I think) were more expensive,,, and you needed more of them.

        Unless you are talking about pulling a junkyard S5X and plopping it in vs. a fresh rebuilt S14.
        If you are, then you are kidding yourself into thinking you are comparing apples to apples.

        We discussd it here a while back [ http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...&highlight=S14 ]

        Just my .02
        jimmy p.
        87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car
        88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - Street
        88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - Race (#98 SCCA SPU)
        92 E30 M Technic Cabrio - S14 POWERED!
        98 318Ti M44, Base - Morea Green
        04 Ford F350 - V10

        Comment


        • #5
          I hear ya Jimmy.
          I refreshed the bottom end of an s52 for a fraction of the same components of the s14.
          The main deal is that I'll be using a lower stressed power plant in the same chassis.
          That will cut maintenance, plus If I tweak it, I can pick up almost three mid mileage s52s for the price of rebuilding the S14.

          The BIG downside will be that I'll forget how to drive on a race track, as the scenario will probably be point and squirt as opposed to dancing at 10/10ths.


          If I raced BMWs,I think that at my current earning level, spec E30/36 would be cheaper than E30 M3 classes.

          m

          Comment


          • #6
            BZZZT - incorrect. I received this email although my License has been expired for several months. I can reinstate the license, but i currently do not have a BMW CCA license. They have kept me on their mailing list for annoucements.


            Originally posted by jimmy p. View Post
            Well,,, I didnt comment,,, because I dont have a BMWCCA CR license, so they dont want my opinion. They only want the opinion of those who already have a license.
            Jimmy ...Jimmy.... Jimmy... Did you actually READ the annoucement?
            I'm trying to HELP all you lost complaining souls and ya'all aren't even paying full attention!

            See this phrase...

            Club Racing was built on a philosophy of inclusiveness and we will reflect this in our work.



            and this sentence that reinforces that towards the end...

            "After a review of the existing rules based on the above guidelines, we will work to define our direction with more specifics and then gather feedback from Club Racers past and present, as well groups we have identified as likely future participants."

            So.. I guess I received the email as a " past racer".. since my rookie license expired. At any rate.... your input IS being sought... and I'm just saying... why don't you drop James a note and stop declaring yourself an outsider ?
            Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 03-16-2010, 01:05 PM.
            Mark Williams
            Dallas, TX

            Nothing says "welcome to the neighborhood" like a search... oh wait... looks like they are all gone! :rastajake:

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            • #7
              I have a few suggestions. The first is to allow upgrades to the ECU beyond just a chip. Competing with modern cars with modern ECUs while hampered with 1980s electronics is like having one arm tied behind your back. Most all modern ECUs can be programmed. Yes, it will cost more to install a piggyback or aftermarket ECU but at least you have the option of upgrading your electronics to be competitive and this includes removing the ancient AFM. The cost of replacing these parts is now becoming a bigger expense than allowing them to be replaced with newer electronics.

              The other area is the roll cage. When a roll cage is required, you should be allowed to extend it to the strut towers. This prevents chassis movement and decreases the chance of frame damage. More modern cars have a much stiffer chassis from the factory. This is also a safety factor, so why not allow it?

              These options will add cost but will also make the car more competitive with more modern cars and allow the owners to make the decision to upgrade or not.


              There you go, some feedback......
              Last edited by inastrangeland; 03-16-2010, 01:08 PM.
              Several E30 M3's.

              More than I need but not as many as I want....

              Comment


              • #8
                Mark,
                I guess you are right and at first I was quite happy to see the announcement.
                I was game to give whatever meager input as I would offer,,, however,,, since this email only went to present and past racers (in any case those who are on their mailing list already).

                I then assumed if they wanted non / prospective racer input they would have posted the request to either the CR Mailing list, maybe Bimmerforums Racing Forum,,, or even posted it in open post on the CR website.

                Since your post was the only place I saw it,,, or even heard about it I assumed it wasn't for not license holders.

                I'm happy to send James an email quoting the email they sent, but looking at how it was distributed I hope you can see why I assumed they were not looking for non racer input.
                Not "trying" to be an outsider...
                cheers
                jimmy
                jimmy p.
                87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car
                88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - Street
                88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - Race (#98 SCCA SPU)
                92 E30 M Technic Cabrio - S14 POWERED!
                98 318Ti M44, Base - Morea Green
                04 Ford F350 - V10

                Comment


                • #9
                  Perhaps it's time to lobby for allowing MAF/AN/similar conversions to these cars...and heck include M20's...basically allow AFM type cars to upgrade to more modern electronics. I don't know how hard this would be to get done but I'd support it.

                  Cheers.
                  Jack Money
                  '88 M3 #20 DM/GTS2
                  Elephant Motorsports Inc

                  AST Monotube Adjustable Dampers and Coilover Kits - Full Service Stocking Distributor
                  Swift Springs Master Distributor
                  JE Pistons Distributor
                  Schroth Safety Products Distributor
                  Motul Fluids Dealer

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is probably going to go down the path of the "other" thread, but maybe it won't.

                    Here is why, I will not submit any input to James Clay or anyone else concerning this. It has clearly been stated by the powers to be that this announcement is specifically aimed at non M3T and SpecE36 guys as those classes are clearly defined.

                    Anyone that was contemplating "stock" class in an E30 M3 is going to M3T (was there anyone to begin with?). Anyone in D-Mod with E30 M3, has some hope of getting something accomplished, but they already can do anything they want to their engine. That leaves Prepared guys...

                    Unfortunately, when defining M3T, making the cars slower seems to have won out...cams, big brakes, rear aero...all gone. Getting rid of the AFM, while having been a slight* cost issue for some, it would have given a certain competitive advantage back to the E30 M3 against all the "built" E36s and E46s in JP.

                    So, the racing still may have not been on equal footing, but can you imagine being in M3T and being somewhat competitive against the other JP guys? Seems like ti would have made racing more fun and entertaining. The fields are too small as it is. People are defecting to E36 M3s in JP like there is no tomorrow it seems.

                    Too bad M3T rules made the car slower and based on how I read the announcement we can't debate it during this round.


                    Nick


                    (* I mention slight cost issue, cause when compared to the amount of money already invested in suspensions, cams, safety, an s14 rebuild, a CR tranny, etc, it really isn't that much in the big picture IMHO).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This is why racers are defecting to NASA GTS. I would like to run BMWCCA but I have much more leeway and can be more competitive in NASA due to the more liberal rules that base the class on hp/weight rather than specifying every single mod that cannot be done. It helps to level the playing field. We have a lot of former SCCA and BMWCCA racers that like a more level playing field.
                      Several E30 M3's.

                      More than I need but not as many as I want....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by inastrangeland View Post
                        This is why racers are defecting to NASA GTS. I would like to run BMWCCA but I have much more leeway and can be more competitive in NASA due to the more liberal rules that base the class on hp/weight rather than specifying every single mod that cannot be done. It helps to level the playing field. We have a lot of former SCCA and BMWCCA racers that like a more level playing field.
                        That's certainly a big part of the reason, but I think there are other factors too. At least in the northeast, the schedule is better and it's posted for the entire year in January. We have 8 GTS-3 racers signed up for NJMP in April, which is still a month away

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by EdPhillips View Post
                          That's certainly a big part of the reason, but I think there are other factors too. At least in the northeast, the schedule is better and it's posted for the entire year in January. We have 8 GTS-3 racers signed up for NJMP in April, which is still a month away

                          not sure I understand the comment about the schedule being posted in January...
                          CCA does the same thing..

                          See http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/events/events.aspx

                          There is a BMW CCA club race at NJMP in June.... might pass thr word to the NASA folks that drive BMWs that they can all play again at the same location and run the cars as GTS-3 in the BMW CCA event... so it's another race you can add to your schedule to round out your season.
                          Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 03-18-2010, 06:17 AM.
                          Mark Williams
                          Dallas, TX

                          Nothing says "welcome to the neighborhood" like a search... oh wait... looks like they are all gone! :rastajake:

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nikos View Post
                            This is probably going to go down the path of the "other" thread, but maybe it won't.

                            Here is why, I will not submit any input to James Clay or anyone else concerning this. It has clearly been stated by the powers to be that this announcement is specifically aimed at non M3T and SpecE36 guys as those classes are clearly defined.

                            Anyone that was contemplating "stock" class in an E30 M3 is going to M3T (was there anyone to begin with?). Anyone in D-Mod with E30 M3, has some hope of getting something accomplished, but they already can do anything they want to their engine. That leaves Prepared guys...

                            Unfortunately, when defining M3T, making the cars slower seems to have won out...cams, big brakes, rear aero...all gone. Getting rid of the AFM, while having been a slight* cost issue for some, it would have given a certain competitive advantage back to the E30 M3 against all the "built" E36s and E46s in JP.

                            So, the racing still may have not been on equal footing, but can you imagine being in M3T and being somewhat competitive against the other JP guys? Seems like ti would have made racing more fun and entertaining. The fields are too small as it is. People are defecting to E36 M3s in JP like there is no tomorrow it seems.

                            Too bad M3T rules made the car slower and based on how I read the announcement we can't debate it during this round.


                            Nick


                            (* I mention slight cost issue, cause when compared to the amount of money already invested in suspensions, cams, safety, an s14 rebuild, a CR tranny, etc, it really isn't that much in the big picture IMHO).
                            I think this entire post should have been left in the other thread.. :blues:

                            M3T and Spec E36 already are newly defined classes.
                            It is very possible, that with the current rules, that most E30 M3 owners are going to M3T, and that most E36 owners will likely run Spec E36... And this is precisely why a rewrite of stock and prepared classes is needed..... and as far as I am concerned is a PERFECT time to make some needed changes, particulary to stock class.... Withholding your input seems incredibly counterintuitive given the opportunity available here....
                            Last edited by M3 Adjuster; 03-18-2010, 06:10 AM.
                            Mark Williams
                            Dallas, TX

                            Nothing says "welcome to the neighborhood" like a search... oh wait... looks like they are all gone! :rastajake:

                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              More allowances might keep some cars in BMW CR that might otherwise leave. I left for GTS quite a while ago because I had no interest in spending the kind of money it would take to build a top JP car only to be rules limited in ways that I didn't like. M3T is much better but too late for me now. At some point I'll come back and run Mod but for others who really don't want to leave perhaps this is incentive to stay. Perhaps they don't want to go to M3T.

                              It's getting thin and perhaps there isn't much justification but then again, so many rules changes occur without any real justification so why not ask.

                              Either way it's no skin off my nose.

                              Cheers.
                              Jack Money
                              '88 M3 #20 DM/GTS2
                              Elephant Motorsports Inc

                              AST Monotube Adjustable Dampers and Coilover Kits - Full Service Stocking Distributor
                              Swift Springs Master Distributor
                              JE Pistons Distributor
                              Schroth Safety Products Distributor
                              Motul Fluids Dealer

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