Must Read-Oil Info

[Dougy Fresh]

Indeed there are many suitable oils for this engine from several brands. I ran 5-40 for several thousand miles and in my experience with my high mileage s14 @ 190k, I experienced quite a bit of burnoff. In fact I had soo much burnoff I had to closely monitor my oil level. Due to this annoyance I am back where I started using mobil 15-50, I feel it is best for my engine given its age and my driving style. I never did do an oil analysis as my engine is past its prime and on its last leg, and like Ironhead said it would really be irrelevant anyways unless you could compare engines identically.

[noro]

Redline says 10W-40. As Ironhead said, these days debating between the top oil brands and almost like saying that the running your tires at 35.23455 PSI will produce the most effective tire wear.

[kiko]

Hi Guys,

Just had this quote back from 'Opie Oils' who are quite big over here in the UK. When asked what oil they would recommend for my engine (I gave him engine, mileage, use etc etc. And this is what he said;

" The Redline 5w-40 would be ideal for the car. It's as good as oil gets, so will give the best protection possible. Redline has done a lot of work with BMW, so their oils
are ideal."

I guess that's what I will swap to.


Regards


David

Do you know that Simon or his brother have been banned from other forums for providing erroneous information?

[Ironhead]

Again, as with all oil discussions, how do we know?

If we switch from 20w-50 to 0w-40 or whatever, how do we know if it is better, worse, or no difference whatsoever? About the only way one would ever know, would be to run two identical S14s with each oil under identical conditions (impossible, really) for 200K miles, then tear the engine apart and compare wear. Even then, my guess is that there might be no discernable difference.

There are so many variables, and changes would take so long to discern, I guess all we can do is read the logic and go with what seems to make sense to us?

[hesnotthemessiah]

Hi Guys,

Just had this quote back from 'Opie Oils' who are quite big over here in the UK. When asked what oil they would recommend for my engine (I gave him engine, mileage, use etc etc. And this is what he said;

" The Redline 5w-40 would be ideal for the car. It's as good as oil gets, so will give the best protection possible. Redline has done a lot of work with BMW, so their oils
are ideal."

I guess that's what I will swap to.


Regards


David

[alchemist88]

Okay, given all the 0w-x discussion, what effect does the oil filter have on all this? Doesn't the oil filter contribute significantly to oil back-pressure?
Also, on an older engine (like most S14s these days), isn't there some assumption that things (like rod bearings) have worn just a bit? It'd be one thing to measure pressure in a factory-fresh engine, and another in an engine with 100,000+ on it.
Also, there is no way I'm going to run a 0w-30 down here in Florida! Just too hot too much of the year to consider watery, hot oil at 5,000+ rpms! Maybe a good synthetic (Amsoil or Redline), that doesn't lose all its viscosity when hot, is okay, but I wouldn't want to run a lightweight oil of any kind when the ambient temp is over 90 degrees (F -- that's like 32/33 C) much of the year.

This just doesn't make much sense to me. I've been reading all these posts, and read the article from the link above by Dr. Haas right after I bought my car. The previous owner used and swore by Amsoil 15W-50, but didn't really have a "why" answer for me. In regard to this Florida post, I think it's obvious either 1) you didn't read the article or 2) you are talking about racing conditions at sustained 5,000 rpms. In the latter case, suggesting using a 0W-30 seems pretty ridiculous anyway since the engine is going to be significantly hotter. So, if it's the former, you're basically insinuating that your engine oil is a different temperature at peak operating temperature on the road (not under track conditions) when it is 90oC F vs. let's say 60oF. My car operates in So. Cal (~60-70oC) at about 210oF (from the oil temp. gauge, haven't gotten to any digital readings yet). I would not be convinced that with the same type of driving I would get a significantly hotter oil with 20 more degrees in road temp. At that high of a temperature, what's regulating your car's temp. is the quality of your cooling system.

No disrespect intended, of course, Mike. If you have accurate engine temperature and or oil pressure data or are willing to collect it under normal operating conditions (or if you can point me to some on here) I'll gladly change my opinion. I'd bet the guys that race often worry about track temperature a little more and pick oil accordingly. Again, I think that is a result of a lot of testing.

Nonetheless, this post I think was intended to alert drivers in general (not specific to S14 engines) that too thick of an oil at startup is a detriment. I'm using the Mobil 0W-40 based on the advice in the article, but you can bet I will be doing analysis to make sure that I'm not getting excessive wear. Actually I'm most interested in the zinc dialkyl dithio phosphate (ZDDP) discussion that has gone on a little here and extensively in the Mobile 1 synthetic post. Mobil 0W-40 was analyzed at 1000ppm ZDDP where most of the oils recommended are ~1200ppm. I'll probably change to the Redline 10W-40 or 5W-40 to see if there is a significant difference there in terms of the analysis. The paradox here is that it seems like in order to get a higher level of ZDDP you have to buy the heavier weight oils. Wouldn't it be better to mix in pure ZDDP to the appropriate concentration in a lighter oil?

I'm still suspicious since I haven't seen any hard data yet. The oil companies are currently "testing" and I haven't seen anything convincing yet that directly compares, with all other variables held constant, the wear on the cams and lifters of this or a similar type of motor with different levels of ZDDP. Can anyone comment on this or point me to any good research.

Also, has anyone followed up from this post yet and done analysis on lighter oils?

[tumaminpapi]

Also, there is no way I'm going to run a 0w-30 down here in Florida! Just too hot too much of the year to consider watery, hot oil at 5,000+ rpms! Maybe a good synthetic (Amsoil or Redline), that doesn't lose all its viscosity when hot, is okay, but I wouldn't want to run a lightweight oil of any kind when the ambient temp is over 90 degrees (F -- that's like 32/33 C) much of the year.

so what oil grade would be better for florida weather?? 5w-50??
how about santa barbara, ca.?? 0w-30 or 0w-40??

[808M]

I have been considering switching all my cars to a HDEO syntetic like Shell's Rotella synth 5w40 which gets pretty good reviews on BITOG, and is not a boutique oil,,, available in every town.
To date I have always used Mobil1 15w50 to date in all my M3s.

With the reduction / elimination of ZDDP in API street oils,,, its starting to make more sense to stop using API street oils.

Anyone else using a HDEO on their S14?

Cheers
jimmy

Jimmy,

I have been using the Rotella synthetic in my other vehicles, but not yet in the S14. I think I found it in Walmart or Checkers...I just put in the Mobil 1 15w50 extended life in the s14 without realizing the change in formulation :(

Here's some interesting reading on the reformulation and the ZDDP content of other oils:

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

-Ken

[///mike]

Okay, given all the 0w-x discussion, what effect does the oil filter have on all this? Doesn't the oil filter contribute significantly to oil back-pressure?
Also, on an older engine (like most S14s these days), isn't there some assumption that things (like rod bearings) have worn just a bit? It'd be one thing to measure pressure in a factory-fresh engine, and another in an engine with 100,000+ on it.
Also, there is no way I'm going to run a 0w-30 down here in Florida! Just too hot too much of the year to consider watery, hot oil at 5,000+ rpms! Maybe a good synthetic (Amsoil or Redline), that doesn't lose all its viscosity when hot, is okay, but I wouldn't want to run a lightweight oil of any kind when the ambient temp is over 90 degrees (F -- that's like 32/33 C) much of the year.

[Reelizmpro]

This is the only concern I have too. While his article makes sense to me, it's tough to swallow that the entire street-car industry (manufacturers and oil companies) have got it all wrong. I might contact him and pose this question

Perhaps because the oil consumption would be more than the factory specs. Thin oil in a "loose" engine is going to burn off faster than a thicker oil. Tolerances today allow for these super thin oils to be used without an obscene amount of consumption. Typical car owners aren't going to like replenishing a quart of oil every 2 weeks or so and that's IF they even check the level that frequently. So what's better? thicker oil with slightly lower fuel economy and poor start up protection or the danger of running on low oil pressure due to low oil levels. Like most things with cars...another trade off.

[M3 Adjuster]

This thread makes me feel better about the 5W-40 that's spec'd for her Subaru .. I use Syntec in that car and have had oil samples each time I have changed the oil and have been advised that after 6K miles the oil could go another 1K.

On the other hand... many manufacturers seem to spec 5W-30 (my Honda Accord and my Ford Expedition both use this) which seems to be a weight that gets the best mileage..

[GeoS]

Personally, I find this a bit easier to read... SAE: How Do You Choose the Right Type of Oil for Your Car? The SAE also does research, is generally unbiased, and actually writes the white papers/standards. No disrespect to the author, but 'studying motor oil in high school' and 'currently discussing oil products with chemists' are odd credentials to quote. An enthusiast... yes, an engineer...no.

On big concern I have with the info in the article is that is it does not address the temporary viscosity loss of multigrades (essentially the property of a multigrade to change - decrease- viscosity as a function of shear).

From the SAE...Temporary viscosity loss limitations were added to SAE J300 to ensure that adequate thin-film lubrication is provided in engine journal bearings. If the oil's temporary viscosity loss is too high, the oil film can fail between two load-bearing surfaces, and metal-to-metal contact occurs. This can reduce engine life, and on occasion, cause catastrophic engine failure.

Using a 0W30 or 0W40 may be great for cold start-up, but could fail to protect the metal surfaces compared to manufacturer recomended higher grade oils for the S14. It would be interesting to see an oil analysis from the authors Ferarri and its metal content. I would bet that he has evidence of incresed engine wear.

I'm not an expert either...just another enthisiast. I just don't like reading about spun bearings and the like.

[AlpineRunner]

Hey guys I didn't read the whole article, but does he explain anywhere why the oil manufacturers make any weight other than 0W-XX?

If all oils are too thick at startup, why would anything other than 0W-XX ever be a good idea?

Thanks for the discussion.

This is the only concern I have too. While his article makes sense to me, it's tough to swallow that the entire street-car industry (manufacturers and oil companies) have got it all wrong. I might contact him and pose this question

[Dougy Fresh]

some motors require different viscocities to achieve the correct operating pressure which the author states: 10psi/1000rpms. Like mark said the e30 m3 was developed before synthetics and has more clearance than a high revving 4 cylinder of todays standards. he also explains that the numbering on the oil cans is misleading. a 0-30 has the same viscocity of a 10-30 at operating temperatures. The difference is a 0-30 does not thicken once the motor is off like a 10-30 will. This translates to easier startup, better flow(better flow translates to better lubricating properties), and most importantly less wear on startup(which is when alot of wear occurs). I am going to be experimenting with different weights until i achieve the right mixture for my car. I hope that helps

Doug

[Dougy Fresh]

i ended up going with amsoil 5-40, i did some research and i think amsoil makes better synthetics than redline. i will be changing the oil this weekend so ill let you guys know how it works out. I need to get an oil pressure guage so i can have some factual information.