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Stock seat belts with Race seats?

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  • Stock seat belts with Race seats?

    Can you safely use the stock belt system with a Sparco/Momo style seat? I have heard that they are and arent safe. I would assume if you ran the stock belt through the holes in the seats you should have to problem.

    Post your pics if you have some!

    Matt
    -Matt

    For Aftermarket Engine Management, Visit Electromotive Store:
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  • #2
    I have both stock belts and 6 points with Recaro Pole Positions and an Autopower cage.

    Stock belts can be done but honestly if you have the harnesses they are better to use all the time.

    Just came to that conclusion this past week.:idea:

    I wore my stock belt for 3 hours on the way home from WGI this past Tuesday and the constant pull of the recoiler on the stock belt kept cutting into my neck. I flipped on the 6 points and left them slightly loose and it was MUCH more comfy.

    As for safety, the stock belt isn't all that safe with non-OEM seats especially if you have a jungle gym in your car.

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    • #3
      car does not have a cage, I am concerned with using 6 points without a cage, but maybe i'll just go for it, and keep the top a little loose.

      Matt
      -Matt

      For Aftermarket Engine Management, Visit Electromotive Store:
      http://www.electromotivestore.com

      Own a shop and need a better website?
      PM me or Visit http://www.shop-websites.com

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      • #4
        Your call of course, but honestly race belts aren't made to be run 'a little loose'. It depends on what exactly a little loose means, but I would say you're asking for trouble in wiggling free in the event of a multiple impact crash, or broken collar bones in a single impact, etc.

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        • #5
          I would suggest that driving with a 5 or 6 point harness without any roll-over protection is highly dangerous if you flip.


          [email protected]

          1969 2002 racecar
          1989 M3 racecar
          e39 Touring

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          • #6
            I wanted the fixed back seats...but waited until I had the roll bar, 6pts. and seats all together. It is a safety system that should be employed together, not separately. I love mine
            John
            88M3 henna


            73T100C
            97 540\6-Gone
            2008 MINI Clubman S

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JEDM3 View Post
              I wanted the fixed back seats...but waited until I had the roll bar, 6pts. and seats all together. It is a safety system that should be employed together, not separately. I love mine
              John

              Ah, there's the rub. Matt's M3 I hate to be the one to tell you but you can't just do one, you have to do the rollbar, seats, harnesses altogether or they are less safe than standard seats and factory 3 points.

              Since you are doing these upgrades to your car for safety, then make sure it's safe.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by JEDM3 View Post
                I wanted the fixed back seats...but waited until I had the roll bar, 6pts. and seats all together. It is a safety system that should be employed together, not separately. I love mine
                John
                'Tis truth. Read the quote, then read it again. There are no alternatives.

                Christopher
                Christopher

                www.brmmotorsports.com

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                • #9
                  Isn't a fixed back seat okay as long as a regular 3-point belt is used? If the car rolls, it still allows the driver to bend and avoid the crumpling roof, which would be impossible with a 5-6 point harness (which is why a rollbar - at least - is required).

                  For HPDEs, the more restraining bolsters of the fiberglass seat are enough so that a 5-6 point harness is not required. I don't think there is any safety counter indication of 3-point belt and fixed back seat. Many cars (such as the e46 CSL) have fixed back race seats and 3 point belts.


                  [email protected]

                  1969 2002 racecar
                  1989 M3 racecar
                  e39 Touring

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                  • #10
                    The issue for me was that if something happened, the seat would not collapse, even with the 3pt. I doubt your upper body would move away from the seat properly. Also, it would depend on the design of the seat. You are either above the side bolsters with the lap belt allowing submarining or you dont have proper upper support.

                    I ended up using a 4pt with asm technology with stock seats until I was able to pull everything together. I thought a lot about it but it wasn't worth the risk to me, I have 4 kids to take care of. Gotta be safe.
                    That is my .02 on this one.
                    Cheers,
                    John
                    88M3 henna


                    73T100C
                    97 540\6-Gone
                    2008 MINI Clubman S

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LeeVuong View Post
                      Isn't a fixed back seat okay as long as a regular 3-point belt is used? If the car rolls, it still allows the driver to bend and avoid the crumpling roof, which would be impossible with a 5-6 point harness (which is why a rollbar - at least - is required).

                      For HPDEs, the more restraining bolsters of the fiberglass seat are enough so that a 5-6 point harness is not required. I don't think there is any safety counter indication of 3-point belt and fixed back seat. Many cars (such as the e46 CSL) have fixed back race seats and 3 point belts.
                      I have brought this point up many times myself, on other forums - about cars such as the E46 CSL and recent variants of the Porsche 911 w/ fixed back seats and 3-point belts. What makes it safe in those cars, but not safe in ours....... ?
                      -AJ

                      -'88 Henna Red-

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Low Level View Post
                        I have brought this point up many times myself, on other forums - about cars such as the E46 CSL and recent variants of the Porsche 911 w/ fixed back seats and 3-point belts. What makes it safe in those cars, but not safe in ours....... ?
                        Even the all mighty Lotus Elise as fixed back seats, and I don't know one organization tha refuses that car at HPDEs, while most will ban race harnesses without rollbar. Many clubs or organizations will ban 4 point harnesses though.


                        [email protected]

                        1969 2002 racecar
                        1989 M3 racecar
                        e39 Touring

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LeeVuong View Post
                          Even the all mighty Lotus Elise as fixed back seats, and I don't know one organization tha refuses that car at HPDEs, while most will ban race harnesses without rollbar. Many clubs or organizations will ban 4 point harnesses though.
                          Yeah, AND an open targa top. How's that work? You're s'posed to be ejected from the car in the event of a rollover?
                          -AJ

                          -'88 Henna Red-

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                          • #14
                            It is all about the safety system's original design. OE safety system designs incorporating fixed back seats and 3-point harnesses were designed to work together at the factory. The OE fixed back seat and OE 3-point harness were designed, and tested, to be used together. MOMO/Sparco/etc. did not design their seats to work with your OE BMW 3-point harness. It is the complete "system" design that is important, and how it was designed by the team of engineers back at the factory. Mimicing such a system with mismatched aftermarket products is not sufficient and is unsafe. Period.

                            Christopher
                            Christopher

                            www.brmmotorsports.com

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by WBSAK03 View Post
                              It is all about the safety system's original design. OE safety system designs incorporating fixed back seats and 3-point harnesses were designed to work together at the factory. The OE fixed back seat and OE 3-point harness were designed, and tested, to be used together. MOMO/Sparco/etc. did not design their seats to work with your OE BMW 3-point harness. It is the complete "system" design that is important, and how it was designed by the team of engineers back at the factory. Mimicing such a system with mismatched aftermarket products is not sufficient and is unsafe. Period.

                              Christopher
                              Of course, Chris - we know that. But as part of this open debate (I like a good debate) here, we're trying to understand what design elements of a factory fixed back + 3pt harness system make that system safe, in comparison to trying to duplicate that setup in a car that didn't come that way from the factory.

                              Here's an example. Take an E46 M3 CSL w/ factory fixed back seats, and 3pt seat belts, like so:



                              What about this E46 M3 w/ Sparco Roadster fixed back seats, and 3pt harnesses?



                              Sparco Roadster's are part of Sparco's street line of seats, and have a relatively small side bolster, as compared to something like a Pro2000, similar in profile to the E46 M3 CSL seats. Sparco has obviously decided they can manufacture and sell a fixed back street seat profitably, from a liability standpoint - thus, it might be a reasonably safe setup.

                              So in this particular instance, what makes the CSL seats + 3pt belts safe, but the Sparco's + 3pt belts not? The seats are very similar, it seems. The cars are almost identical. 3pt belts in both.

                              :battle:

                              Haha!
                              Last edited by Low Level; 06-24-2007, 01:44 PM.
                              -AJ

                              -'88 Henna Red-

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