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  • Are custom valved Koni's the answer?
    sigpic 95 M3 & 88 M3

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    • Originally posted by mwagner10702 View Post
      I don't think the Mustang shock will work due to its length, especially with a lower spring. Probably be on the bump stop a lot.

      The Turner J-Stock valving for the rear was 200/125. The 200/200 you reference are the Group N rates. I think the standard rates of the 33-017204 are not going to result in the best ride or handling. They are over damped on rebound and compression. While I think you could get away with the higher compression number (since it is between the J-Stock and Group N), the higher rebound number combined with the 1026lb rear spring may not play well together. Although since you have them (assuming you can;t return them) why not install them and see what the ride is like. Keep in mind the Econoline van from which these were sourced is a lot heavier in the rear than the E30 M3.

      I see a couple of options:

      1) Purchase the Bilstein Group N dampers (24-000642). Unfortunately they are expensive. However when you factor in the cost to re-valve the 33-017204 damper you actually come out ahead.

      2) There is a set of original Bilstein J-Stock rears for sale on the SIG. I am going to assume you are not a member so I'll post the person's contact info here (hope he doesn't mind!) His name is Eric Heinrich. You can reach him at ericjheinrich at gmail.com, or at 617 549 7280. Per Eric they will need a rebuild, but given that they are original (and I am assuming early) Bilsteins they should not have the crimp and be able to be rebuilt.

      Unfortunate about the changes to the 33-017204 damper.

      Thanks. I sent Eric and email.

      The shocks are from Amazon, so back they go. Looking like the J-Stocks used if I can get them, or the Group N if not, are the way to complete this setup.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by RAD2LTR View Post
        . . . So, if one runs stiffer compression damping at 200, and rebound at 150, you will have overly harsh compression and bouncy rebound. I tried my rear J stock Bilsteins and they were underdamped on rebound. The back end was bouncy to the point making me seasick (and I don't get seasick.) They came off the car as soon as I got home. The VAC motorsports Konis I run (that are tuned by TC Klein) have very little compression damping, but the rebound is maxed out. The ride is firm, but controlled. Not overdamped either.
        I think you have the compression and rebound numbers reversed. AFAIK the J-Stock Bilstein rears are valved at 200(R) and 125(C). So it wouldn't be 150(R) and 200(C) that you are referencing. I do agree with you that a damper with a rebound rate of 150 would be under-damped for a 1026lb spring.

        Obviously spring and damper combinations are subjective relative to one's end goals and desired ride / handling characteristics. Although I am curious as to your disappointment with the J-Stock Bilsteins since that combination of damper and spring was used very successfully back in the day. I certainly have no reference of any driver complaining of seasickness with the TMS J-Stock setup under race conditions.

        I didn't articulate my point about rebound rates very well and was probably confusing.

        Looking at the BMW M3 E30 Group N Catalog I find it interesting that there are a variety of rear spring rates offered, but only one rear shock offered. The shock offered was valved at 200/200.

        REAR SPRING RATES

        33 53 2 222 699 . . . . . . . . . .c = 180 N
        33 53 2 222 530 . . . . . . . . . .c = 200 N
        33 53 2 222 531 . . . . . . . . . .c = 220 N
        33 53 2 222 532 . . . . . . . . . .c = 240 N
        33 53 2 222 555 . . . . . . . . . .c = 260 N
        33 53 2 222 556 . . . . . . . . . .c = 280 N
        33 53 2 222 557 . . . . . . . . . .c = 300 N
        33 53 2 222 558 . . . . . . . . . .c = 320 N

        In Group A there were multiple valving combinations available as well as spring rates (keep in mind these spring rates are full rear coil over). Here is a copy of a couple of pages from the Group A catalog I have.

        Click image for larger version  Name:	Group A0001.jpg Views:	0 Size:	31.1 KB ID:	1279582



        Click image for larger version  Name:	Group A0002.jpg Views:	0 Size:	48.3 KB ID:	1279580
        1990 M3

        Comment


        • I just wanted to clarify that the Ford econoline shock is 300 (rebound) and 150 (compression)

          the rebound is much higher than the group N which is available.


          i am trying to add some stability and “push” to my car, which is extremely loose currently. Increasing front spring rate will help. Increasing rear at the same time will not help. I’m hoping to find a balance between the H&r Race, Jstock, and group N stuff.

          Comment


          • I wonder if these Penske's would be a viable solution at $200/ea?

            Extended 18"
            Collapsed 13"

            10mm shaft

            Rears are
            Extended 14.5"
            Collapsed 9"

            http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/wp-c...xplanation.pdf

            Comment


            • Originally posted by redneckvtek View Post
              I just wanted to clarify that the Ford econoline shock is 300 (rebound) and 150 (compression)

              the rebound is much higher than the group N which is available.


              i am trying to add some stability and “push” to my car, which is extremely loose currently. Increasing front spring rate will help. Increasing rear at the same time will not help. I’m hoping to find a balance between the H&r Race, Jstock, and group N stuff.
              What is your current setup, sway bars, springs, dampers and camber/caster settings? With the J stock springs, a 27mm front bar, and stock rear, my car is totally neutral. Point and go. Even in the rain. I'm running zero toe, with about -2 degrees front camber, and as much caster as I can get. I have a feeling your car oversteers because of a suspension setting up front rather than odd spring rates. It might also be that the anti-sway bars are poorly chosen. (Too stiff in the back)

              Will
              '69 Datsun 2000 Roadster vintage race car (Street driven on a regular basis :taz
              '59 Alfa Romeo 101 Sprint (HUGE project :uhoh
              '88 M3

              Comment


              • Originally posted by redneckvtek View Post
                I wonder if these Penske's would be a viable solution at $200/ea?

                Extended 18"
                Collapsed 13"

                10mm shaft

                Rears are
                Extended 14.5"
                Collapsed 9"

                http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/wp-c...xplanation.pdf
                Rears are too short. See post #251. Question is why even consider this when there is a proven solution out there (i.e. Bilstein).
                1990 M3

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RAD2LTR View Post

                  What is your current setup, sway bars, springs, dampers and camber/caster settings? With the J stock springs, a 27mm front bar, and stock rear, my car is totally neutral. Point and go. Even in the rain. I'm running zero toe, with about -2 degrees front camber, and as much caster as I can get. I have a feeling your car oversteers because of a suspension setting up front rather than odd spring rates. It might also be that the anti-sway bars are poorly chosen. (Too stiff in the back)

                  Will
                  Car is a gutted non-m with a m54b25. Even with the AL engine, its nose heavy. I can't change from the stock (non m) sway bars due to series rules, nor can I use camber/caster plates. The strut tops are drilled and flipped, and then squeezed with a special tool, to get -3.5ish camber. Caster has never been measured, but the holes are shifted back as mush as possible. Toe is set 1/16 out in the front. Front tire wear is good on 245/40/15 street tires.

                  I do agree regarding the spring rates. The H&R Race springs are too soft for a race-only e30. The Bilstein B8's are also likely too soft on rebound in the rear specifically.
                  Hopefully the J-Stocks will help once I complete that setup.



                  Originally posted by mwagner10702 View Post

                  Rears are too short. See post #251. Question is why even consider this when there is a proven solution out there (i.e. Bilstein).

                  I see post #126 says this:

                  Collapsed 16~ expanded 22~
                  Collapsed 15~ expanded 22~

                  I think the rear Miata shocks have too low of a rate anyways. I was considering going front miata on rear e30.


                  The reason to consider this, is that I am having difficulty finding/purchasing a set of J-stock rear shocks. I have reached to the previously mentioned person and am trying to follow up on that lead (thanks!). In the future however, this will become harder and harder - there are a finite number of rebuildable j-stock shocks out there. I have two cars I would eventually like to equip with the J-stock springs now that they are available again, necessitating two sets of shocks.

                  I am trying to solve this for myself, and at the same time share my results with the community.

                  From what I have found out above, the Econoline Bilstein rears are not a viable option. Those shocks are no longer rebuildable due to manufacturing cost-reduction methods.
                  Same issue with the E30 direct-fitment Bilstein B8 shocks, which are no longer rebuildable from August 2018 onward.

                  The only reasonable, OTS option appears to be the GroupN shocks $280/each, and I was hoping to find something more budget friendly.





                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by redneckvtek View Post
                    The only reasonable, OTS option appears to be the GroupN shocks $280/each, and I was hoping to find something more budget friendly.
                    When I contacted PSI (Performance Shock, Inc) to get a price on revalving the Econoline Bilstein rears they quoted me $200 per shock (and 5 to 7 weeks). Based on their numbers I determined the Group N Bilsteins were actually a good price @ $271 each and I had them in 10 days from the UK. Plus I have a feeling they can still be rebuilt down the road if necessary. PSI was the only firm that responded to my inquiry (out of the five I contacted).

                    What did RESuspension want to revalve each shock?

                    Did you get a reply from Eric Heinrich about his inverted J-Stock rear Bilsteins he has for sale?
                    1990 M3

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mwagner10702 View Post

                      When I contacted PSI (Performance Shock, Inc) to get a price on revalving the Econoline Bilstein rears they quoted me $200 per shock (and 5 to 7 weeks). Based on their numbers I determined the Group N Bilsteins were actually a good price @ $271 each and I had them in 10 days from the UK. Plus I have a feeling they can still be rebuilt down the road if necessary. PSI was the only firm that responded to my inquiry (out of the five I contacted).

                      What did RESuspension want to revalve each shock?

                      Did you get a reply from Eric Heinrich about his inverted J-Stock rear Bilsteins he has for sale?


                      RE Suspension wanted $75 each, for a total shock price of $175. Once they received the shocks, they became aware they were physically not able to be disassembled without destroying the body.


                      Yes, I have gotten up with Eric, but we have not been able to speak by phone yet, although I hope to follow up today. Thanks!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by redneckvtek View Post
                        I see post #126 says this:
                        Just an FYI that was from the Econolines before sending them in to be revalved.



                        Also - as long as the econolines are from before the crimped revision it should be fine. When did they make that change? Wondering if the set we had our friend get is crimped - no word yet.
                        Surely there is a large stockpile of non crimped variations out there, just have to ask the supplier to check the number (if indicated somewhere).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by proctor750 View Post
                          Also - as long as the econolines are from before the crimped revision it should be fine. When did they make that change? Wondering if the set we had our friend get is crimped - no word yet.
                          Surely there is a large stockpile of non crimped variations out there, just have to ask the supplier to check the number (if indicated somewhere).
                          Per redneckvtek The crimping started at revision H4 (see post #133). Find shocks marked H0 through H3 and you may be OK. The complete nomenclature would be B46-1720-H1 . . . H3
                          1990 M3

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mwagner10702 View Post

                            Per redneckvtek The crimping started at revision H4 (see post #133). Find shocks marked H0 through H3 and you may be OK. The complete nomenclature would be B46-1720-H1 . . . H3
                            That was specifically for the E30 OEM fit B8 Shocks, 24-020275. F4-B36-2027-H* is the bilstein nomenclature.

                            I do not know for the econoline shocks when the changeover to crimp started.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by redneckvtek View Post

                              That was specifically for the E30 OEM fit B8 Shocks, 24-020275. F4-B36-2027-H* is the bilstein nomenclature.

                              I do not know for the econoline shocks when the changeover to crimp started.
                              Right that's what I'm getting at. Maybe I can browse some of the E van forums or something to find out. Or call bilstein (never have luck getting that kind of info directly from a supplier).

                              I also wonder if the crimping genuinely makes them tamper proof or if the one particular company just didn't want to fool with it (or didn't have tooling to deal with it if crimped..)

                              Comment


                              • For those interested, here is a picture of a crimped Bilstein. The Group N Motorsports shocks are not crimped.

                                Click image for larger version  Name:	Crimped Bilstein.JPG Views:	0 Size:	33.8 KB ID:	1279702

                                Crimping was done to lower manufacturing costs, not to make them tamper proof.
                                1990 M3

                                Comment


                                • proctor750
                                  proctor750 commented
                                  Editing a comment
                                  I was referring to the side effect of crimping, not the design purpose.
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