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  • redneckvtek
    replied
    Originally posted by RAD2LTR View Post

    What is your current setup, sway bars, springs, dampers and camber/caster settings? With the J stock springs, a 27mm front bar, and stock rear, my car is totally neutral. Point and go. Even in the rain. I'm running zero toe, with about -2 degrees front camber, and as much caster as I can get. I have a feeling your car oversteers because of a suspension setting up front rather than odd spring rates. It might also be that the anti-sway bars are poorly chosen. (Too stiff in the back)

    Will
    Car is a gutted non-m with a m54b25. Even with the AL engine, its nose heavy. I can't change from the stock (non m) sway bars due to series rules, nor can I use camber/caster plates. The strut tops are drilled and flipped, and then squeezed with a special tool, to get -3.5ish camber. Caster has never been measured, but the holes are shifted back as mush as possible. Toe is set 1/16 out in the front. Front tire wear is good on 245/40/15 street tires.

    I do agree regarding the spring rates. The H&R Race springs are too soft for a race-only e30. The Bilstein B8's are also likely too soft on rebound in the rear specifically.
    Hopefully the J-Stocks will help once I complete that setup.



    Originally posted by mwagner10702 View Post

    Rears are too short. See post #251. Question is why even consider this when there is a proven solution out there (i.e. Bilstein).

    I see post #126 says this:

    Collapsed 16~ expanded 22~
    Collapsed 15~ expanded 22~

    I think the rear Miata shocks have too low of a rate anyways. I was considering going front miata on rear e30.


    The reason to consider this, is that I am having difficulty finding/purchasing a set of J-stock rear shocks. I have reached to the previously mentioned person and am trying to follow up on that lead (thanks!). In the future however, this will become harder and harder - there are a finite number of rebuildable j-stock shocks out there. I have two cars I would eventually like to equip with the J-stock springs now that they are available again, necessitating two sets of shocks.

    I am trying to solve this for myself, and at the same time share my results with the community.

    From what I have found out above, the Econoline Bilstein rears are not a viable option. Those shocks are no longer rebuildable due to manufacturing cost-reduction methods.
    Same issue with the E30 direct-fitment Bilstein B8 shocks, which are no longer rebuildable from August 2018 onward.

    The only reasonable, OTS option appears to be the GroupN shocks $280/each, and I was hoping to find something more budget friendly.





    Leave a comment:


  • mwagner10702
    replied
    Originally posted by redneckvtek View Post
    I wonder if these Penske's would be a viable solution at $200/ea?

    Extended 18"
    Collapsed 13"

    10mm shaft

    Rears are
    Extended 14.5"
    Collapsed 9"

    http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/wp-c...xplanation.pdf
    Rears are too short. See post #251. Question is why even consider this when there is a proven solution out there (i.e. Bilstein).

    Leave a comment:


  • RAD2LTR
    replied
    Originally posted by redneckvtek View Post
    I just wanted to clarify that the Ford econoline shock is 300 (rebound) and 150 (compression)

    the rebound is much higher than the group N which is available.


    i am trying to add some stability and “push” to my car, which is extremely loose currently. Increasing front spring rate will help. Increasing rear at the same time will not help. I’m hoping to find a balance between the H&r Race, Jstock, and group N stuff.
    What is your current setup, sway bars, springs, dampers and camber/caster settings? With the J stock springs, a 27mm front bar, and stock rear, my car is totally neutral. Point and go. Even in the rain. I'm running zero toe, with about -2 degrees front camber, and as much caster as I can get. I have a feeling your car oversteers because of a suspension setting up front rather than odd spring rates. It might also be that the anti-sway bars are poorly chosen. (Too stiff in the back)

    Will

    Leave a comment:


  • redneckvtek
    replied
    I wonder if these Penske's would be a viable solution at $200/ea?

    Extended 18"
    Collapsed 13"

    10mm shaft

    Rears are
    Extended 14.5"
    Collapsed 9"

    http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/wp-c...xplanation.pdf

    Leave a comment:


  • redneckvtek
    replied
    I just wanted to clarify that the Ford econoline shock is 300 (rebound) and 150 (compression)

    the rebound is much higher than the group N which is available.


    i am trying to add some stability and “push” to my car, which is extremely loose currently. Increasing front spring rate will help. Increasing rear at the same time will not help. I’m hoping to find a balance between the H&r Race, Jstock, and group N stuff.

    Leave a comment:


  • mwagner10702
    replied
    Originally posted by RAD2LTR View Post
    . . . So, if one runs stiffer compression damping at 200, and rebound at 150, you will have overly harsh compression and bouncy rebound. I tried my rear J stock Bilsteins and they were underdamped on rebound. The back end was bouncy to the point making me seasick (and I don't get seasick.) They came off the car as soon as I got home. The VAC motorsports Konis I run (that are tuned by TC Klein) have very little compression damping, but the rebound is maxed out. The ride is firm, but controlled. Not overdamped either.
    I think you have the compression and rebound numbers reversed. AFAIK the J-Stock Bilstein rears are valved at 200(R) and 125(C). So it wouldn't be 150(R) and 200(C) that you are referencing. I do agree with you that a damper with a rebound rate of 150 would be under-damped for a 1026lb spring.

    Obviously spring and damper combinations are subjective relative to one's end goals and desired ride / handling characteristics. Although I am curious as to your disappointment with the J-Stock Bilsteins since that combination of damper and spring was used very successfully back in the day. I certainly have no reference of any driver complaining of seasickness with the TMS J-Stock setup under race conditions.

    I didn't articulate my point about rebound rates very well and was probably confusing.

    Looking at the BMW M3 E30 Group N Catalog I find it interesting that there are a variety of rear spring rates offered, but only one rear shock offered. The shock offered was valved at 200/200.

    REAR SPRING RATES

    33 53 2 222 699 . . . . . . . . . .c = 180 N
    33 53 2 222 530 . . . . . . . . . .c = 200 N
    33 53 2 222 531 . . . . . . . . . .c = 220 N
    33 53 2 222 532 . . . . . . . . . .c = 240 N
    33 53 2 222 555 . . . . . . . . . .c = 260 N
    33 53 2 222 556 . . . . . . . . . .c = 280 N
    33 53 2 222 557 . . . . . . . . . .c = 300 N
    33 53 2 222 558 . . . . . . . . . .c = 320 N

    In Group A there were multiple valving combinations available as well as spring rates (keep in mind these spring rates are full rear coil over). Here is a copy of a couple of pages from the Group A catalog I have.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Group A0001.jpg Views:	0 Size:	31.1 KB ID:	1279582



    Click image for larger version  Name:	Group A0002.jpg Views:	0 Size:	48.3 KB ID:	1279580

    Leave a comment:


  • redneckvtek
    replied
    Originally posted by mwagner10702 View Post
    I don't think the Mustang shock will work due to its length, especially with a lower spring. Probably be on the bump stop a lot.

    The Turner J-Stock valving for the rear was 200/125. The 200/200 you reference are the Group N rates. I think the standard rates of the 33-017204 are not going to result in the best ride or handling. They are over damped on rebound and compression. While I think you could get away with the higher compression number (since it is between the J-Stock and Group N), the higher rebound number combined with the 1026lb rear spring may not play well together. Although since you have them (assuming you can;t return them) why not install them and see what the ride is like. Keep in mind the Econoline van from which these were sourced is a lot heavier in the rear than the E30 M3.

    I see a couple of options:

    1) Purchase the Bilstein Group N dampers (24-000642). Unfortunately they are expensive. However when you factor in the cost to re-valve the 33-017204 damper you actually come out ahead.

    2) There is a set of original Bilstein J-Stock rears for sale on the SIG. I am going to assume you are not a member so I'll post the person's contact info here (hope he doesn't mind!) His name is Eric Heinrich. You can reach him at ericjheinrich at gmail.com, or at 617 549 7280. Per Eric they will need a rebuild, but given that they are original (and I am assuming early) Bilsteins they should not have the crimp and be able to be rebuilt.

    Unfortunate about the changes to the 33-017204 damper.

    Thanks. I sent Eric and email.

    The shocks are from Amazon, so back they go. Looking like the J-Stocks used if I can get them, or the Group N if not, are the way to complete this setup.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ant's m3
    replied
    Are custom valved Koni's the answer?

    Leave a comment:


  • RAD2LTR
    replied
    Originally posted by mwagner10702 View Post
    I don't think the Mustang shock will work due to its length, especially with a lower spring. Probably be on the bump stop a lot.

    The Turner J-Stock valving for the rear was 200/125. The 200/200 you reference are the Group N rates. I think the standard rates of the 33-017204 are not going to result in the best ride or handling. They are over damped on rebound and compression. While I think you could get away with the higher compression number (since it is between the J-Stock and Group N), the higher rebound number combined with the 1026lb rear spring may not play well together. Although since you have them (assuming you can;t return them) why not install them and see what the ride is like. Keep in mind the Econoline van from which these were sourced is a lot heavier in the rear than the E30 M3.

    I see a couple of options:

    1) Purchase the Bilstein Group N dampers (24-000642). Unfortunately they are expensive. However when you factor in the cost to re-valve the 33-017204 damper you actually come out ahead.

    2) There is a set of original Bilstein J-Stock rears for sale on the SIG. I am going to assume you are not a member so I'll post the person's contact info here (hope he doesn't mind!) His name is Eric Heinrich. You can reach him at ericjheinrich at gmail.com, or at 617 549 7280. Per Eric they will need a rebuild, but given that they are original (and I am assuming early) Bilsteins they should not have the crimp and be able to be rebuilt.

    Unfortunate about the changes to the 33-017204 damper.
    Uh, rebound damping is for the rebound of the spring. This is the important one, otherwise you end up with a bouncy car. Compression damping needs to be lower, otherwise the suspension is needlessly harsh. So, if one runs stiffer compression damping at 200, and rebound at 150, you will have overly harsh compression and bouncy rebound. I tried my rear J stock Bilsteins and they were underdamped on rebound. The back end was bouncy to the point making me seasick (and I don't get seasick.) They came off the car as soon as I got home. The VAC motorsports Konis I run (that are tuned by TC Klein) have very little compression damping, but the rebound is maxed out. The ride is firm, but controlled. Not overdamped either.

    I dont' think these springs need more compression damping, but do need more rebound damping.

    Will

    Leave a comment:


  • mwagner10702
    replied
    I don't think the Mustang shock will work due to its length, especially with a lower spring. Probably be on the bump stop a lot.

    The Turner J-Stock valving for the rear was 200/125. The 200/200 you reference are the Group N rates. I think the standard rates of the 33-017204 are not going to result in the best ride or handling. They are over damped on rebound and compression. While I think you could get away with the higher compression number (since it is between the J-Stock and Group N), the higher rebound number combined with the 1026lb rear spring may not play well together. Although since you have them (assuming you can;t return them) why not install them and see what the ride is like. Keep in mind the Econoline van from which these were sourced is a lot heavier in the rear than the E30 M3.

    I see a couple of options:

    1) Purchase the Bilstein Group N dampers (24-000642). Unfortunately they are expensive. However when you factor in the cost to re-valve the 33-017204 damper you actually come out ahead.

    2) There is a set of original Bilstein J-Stock rears for sale on the SIG. I am going to assume you are not a member so I'll post the person's contact info here (hope he doesn't mind!) His name is Eric Heinrich. You can reach him at ericjheinrich at gmail.com, or at 617 549 7280. Per Eric they will need a rebuild, but given that they are original (and I am assuming early) Bilsteins they should not have the crimp and be able to be rebuilt.

    Unfortunate about the changes to the 33-017204 damper.

    Leave a comment:


  • redneckvtek
    replied
    Update for this afternoon:

    Apparently Bilstein has recently changed some manufacturing things. This is what I have learned from Bilstein directly:

    - All shocks manufactured in the USA are "crimped" and therefore not rebuildable.
    - The OE fitment E30 B8 shocks (24-020275) have recently been converted to the "crimped" design. Older shocks are likely rebuildable. The crimping started at revision H4.


    The OE Fitment B8's (24-020275) are valved 170/60
    The Ford Van B6's listed earlier on this page (33-017204) are valved 300/150

    I wonder if the ford van valving is sufficient for these springs? The compression is higher by 50% and the damping is lower by 25% from what I understand is the target of 200/200?

    I am working with bilstein and REsuspension to find an alternative shock. RE has a mustang shock that is 1" longer, not inverted, but has 1" more travel than the Ford Van (33-017204) inverted shocks. How close is the compressed length to being too long? I can possibly measure myself this weekend if no one already knows.

    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • redneckvtek
    replied
    Originally posted by mwagner10702 View Post

    Try Performance Shock, Inc. They are located in Sonoma Raceway @ Sears Point. They do most if not all the major race team's shocks.

    PSI
    29139 Arnold Drive
    Sonoma, CA 95476
    (800) 965-5664

    BTW - what rears did you send to NC?

    Mark

    33-017204
    https://www.amazon.com/Bilstein-33-0.../dp/B009FU6Y0G

    RESuspension is the company I tried.

    Leave a comment:


  • mwagner10702
    replied
    If you pull off the boot you will be able to see where the valving was engraved into the top of the strut cartridge. Very cool.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Shock.jpg Views:	0 Size:	136.6 KB ID:	1279553

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  • mwagner10702
    replied
    Originally posted by redneckvtek View Post
    . . . does anyone have a recommended service to have them re-valved?
    Try Performance Shock, Inc. They are located in Sonoma Raceway @ Sears Point. They do most if not all the major race team's shocks.

    PSI
    29139 Arnold Drive
    Sonoma, CA 95476
    (800) 965-5664

    BTW - what rears did you send to NC?

    Mark

    Leave a comment:


  • redneckvtek
    replied
    I received the springs and front shocks. Everything good there.


    regarding the rears - I had them drop shipped to a shock service in mooresville Nc. They called today and said “we cannot re-valve these because they are “crimped”.”

    does anyone have a recommended service to have them re-valved?Click image for larger version

Name:	BF6F69A6-FCC4-4092-BF84-5494E3E4324F.jpeg
Views:	146
Size:	125.5 KB
ID:	1279548

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