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  • #31
    I've been working with Neel for a pretty long while and I feel there is no one better between his understanding of the hardware from top level pro down, the execution of hardware that he builds (harnesses) and his real, real genius is in the drivers seat, with a laptop on the dyno.
    Neel / Apex is great choice.
    jimmy p.
    87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car
    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - Street
    88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - Race (#98 SCCA SPU)
    92 E30 M Technic Cabrio - S14 POWERED!
    98 318Ti M44, Base - Morea Green
    04 Ford F350 - V10

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by HANDBLT View Post

      I wanted dual active knock, 8inj and traction control (one day with MK60 ABS) so I went with this one. It was only $1200 so you can't really beat it.

      T
      I looked up the specs on the Link Xtreme and Fury. They have the same functionality except that the Fury has 2 fewer analog inputs (9 vs 11) and 2 fewer ignition drivers (6 vs 8) but it has a built in WBO2 controller. It looks like the Fury is a more capable ECU.

      I like that the Link ECUs have OBD functionality. I was reading about the WBO2 controller in the Fury and it can monitor the health of the O2 sensor and let you know when it's going bad. I don't think you get that with the stand alone WBO2 units like Innovate.

      I asked Neel about Vi-PEC since he used to suggest those and he said that the Vi-PEC and Link ECUs are the same, just different names.

      Every time I've talked to Neel he's been very straight forward and has never suggested buying more than the minimum to get what I need.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by rewilfert View Post
        I asked Neel about Vi-PEC since he used to suggest those and he said that the Vi-PEC and Link ECUs are the same, just different names.
        I think that goes back to the earliest ViPec systems as well. I think Link has always built the ViPec hardware.
        Testing my memory but in the early days of ViPec when they were offering crazy crazy good introductory deals there was basically a ViPec unit and a comparable Link unit that were almost identical hardware wise.
        The difference was the software, the marketing, the packaging, etc.

        I seem to remember ViPec being the byproduct of a "divorce" of two owners of a standalone company (Pectel maybe?) and one off them was a Kiwi basically went to Link (a Kiwi company) and started reselling their hardware with his software, packaging and marketing.

        When I originally started working with Neel we were going to go with Pectel, we had the whole system spec'd out and then I remember him calling me and telling me about this fantastic deal on a new product called ViPec that I should consider. The cost was less than 1/2 of the comparable Pectel unit and had all the features we needed to do whatever he wanted to do on the S14 so I bought the Vipec (I bought 3 actually, one for the club racer, one for the Gruppe A car and a spare to share between both cars).
        Shortly after that the price went up to comparable to their competition.
        jimmy p.
        87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car
        88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - Street
        88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - Race (#98 SCCA SPU)
        92 E30 M Technic Cabrio - S14 POWERED!
        98 318Ti M44, Base - Morea Green
        04 Ford F350 - V10

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by HANDBLT View Post
          I haven't seen a thread with all the guys with 2.7's so let's get one going. Mine is still in purgatory waiting on pistons to come from the motherland, but it will be done this summer sometime (Mario is tuning it on an engine dyno). The ultimate goal of this car will be the Alpina DTM Michelin #22 car but still street legal (we don't have ANY type of inspections here so I can literally do anything).....

          Here are my specs:


          -50mm CF 8 injector airbox with panel filter housing

          Do you have any pictures of your air filter housing? And where did it come from?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by jimmy p. View Post

            I think that goes back to the earliest ViPec systems as well. I think Link has always built the ViPec hardware.
            Testing my memory but in the early days of ViPec when they were offering crazy crazy good introductory deals there was basically a ViPec unit and a comparable Link unit that were almost identical hardware wise.
            The difference was the software, the marketing, the packaging, etc.

            I seem to remember ViPec being the byproduct of a "divorce" of two owners of a standalone company (Pectel maybe?) and one off them was a Kiwi basically went to Link (a Kiwi company) and started reselling their hardware with his software, packaging and marketing.

            When I originally started working with Neel we were going to go with Pectel, we had the whole system spec'd out and then I remember him calling me and telling me about this fantastic deal on a new product called ViPec that I should consider. The cost was less than 1/2 of the comparable Pectel unit and had all the features we needed to do whatever he wanted to do on the S14 so I bought the Vipec (I bought 3 actually, one for the club racer, one for the Gruppe A car and a spare to share between both cars).
            Shortly after that the price went up to comparable to their competition.
            Now that you mention it, I do recall this being the case. The original manufacturer was Autronic. Ray Hall left them and started Vi-PEC.

            Comment


            • #36
              Hey Gents just found this thread. As some know I'm posting on the s14power board rebuilding my M since eating a tire wall at VIR couple years ago. 2.7 has been serving well in the trim I built it, but scope creep is a MF. Combo has been hilarious on track pulling on e46M cars, and unsuspecting muscle. I basically out grew the HR race suspension combo real quick and should've checked rear shock travel closer. Was my demise causing a quick grass cutting incident.

              Looking to deal with Apex for a standalone once get to the engine part of the budget. Right now still building the car itself.
              Shooting for tearing down my long rod (147mm) 2.7 with 292/284 cams for moving compression in the 13's realm and sticking in the dtm rally 312/292 i've sitting on the shelf. Project is definitely another year or so away. Looking for similar to the vipec44 even if it's link or whatever. I'm simple so want a plug in that uses the factory flywheel sensors etc. Has to be simple to setup and tune cause will be up to me to do so. I'm good with the maxx unit, but just want to control timing myself also not relying on chips and the motronic since it's aging.

              Far as car build just doing everything myself. Takes a lot of time, and a lot of beer. No funds to buy Conrads setup , so making my own version based off the pictures collected from many dtm cars.

              Just preliminary weighed the car for the first time so far. Full cage with ballast in it for fuel etc, drivetrain, it's tipping scales at 1860 lbs wet. I'm confident I'll keep it under 2000 lbs when done, so progress.

              anyways great thread, and nice to see more 2.7s out there
              Photos

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by autox320 View Post
                Hey Gents just found this thread. As some know I'm posting on the s14power board rebuilding my M since eating a tire wall at VIR couple years ago. 2.7 has been serving well in the trim I built it, but scope creep is a MF. Combo has been hilarious on track pulling on e46M cars, and unsuspecting muscle. I basically out grew the HR race suspension combo real quick and should've checked rear shock travel closer. Was my demise causing a quick grass cutting incident.

                Looking to deal with Apex for a standalone once get to the engine part of the budget. Right now still building the car itself.
                Shooting for tearing down my long rod (147mm) 2.7 with 292/284 cams for moving compression in the 13's realm and sticking in the dtm rally 312/292 i've sitting on the shelf. Project is definitely another year or so away. Looking for similar to the vipec44 even if it's link or whatever. I'm simple so want a plug in that uses the factory flywheel sensors etc. Has to be simple to setup and tune cause will be up to me to do so. I'm good with the maxx unit, but just want to control timing myself also not relying on chips and the motronic since it's aging.

                Far as car build just doing everything myself. Takes a lot of time, and a lot of beer. No funds to buy Conrads setup , so making my own version based off the pictures collected from many dtm cars.

                Just preliminary weighed the car for the first time so far. Full cage with ballast in it for fuel etc, drivetrain, it's tipping scales at 1860 lbs wet. I'm confident I'll keep it under 2000 lbs when done, so progress.

                anyways great thread, and nice to see more 2.7s out there
                Jody,
                Good seeing you here too.
                Really impressive work on your car!
                Wish I had skills and a place to such things myself.

                Regarding your engine, you are going all the way to 13 compression? Quite high.. dont know how that will effect the engine, only thing I know is the max rpm is quite limited with the rally cams as far as I have understood from John, and how my engine performs (11.7 compr) But from all I know they could like that high comp.

                Ems.. you could consider maxxecu.. my brother is selling them,and making PnP for s14's.


                Tony.. how's your engine coming along?
                My car has been on the road a few weeks now, but not quite finished with my fuel map (which is changing quite often due to experimenting) the intake and a different x- pipe position.

                At the moment it is not giving the best topend hp (not measured) but very strong mid, and from the ems logging I can tell it doing 0-100 km in 5 secs without hard start, and 3rd gear revved out (appr 155kph) in just over 9 seconds.. and the car is not a lightweight at all.. so quite fast.

                Comment


                • nilsp
                  nilsp commented
                  Editing a comment
                  edit.. looked at logs, remembered I have different diff ratio now, 3.46 vs 3.25
                  That makes more like 148kph in 9.3 secs.(215/45-17 wheels)

              • #38
                Originally posted by nilsp View Post
                Hi T,

                Waited for a thread like this

                Did a short presentation on the facebook page, but think that is better for look at my new wheels etc.

                My engine is quite similar yours, can do a round-up to compare.

                -Link Extreme ECU with custom harness built by my brother.
                -Dual knock,dual wbo2, 4 egt sensors. Only 4 injectors, x 550cc
                -Used stock rotor until now, worked perfect really, but now coil pack.
                -stock intruments, but the new canchecked display connected by canbus, same is my mk60 abs and wbo2 sensors.
                -2.7L rotating assembly from John, mahle motorsport pistons.
                -12:1 CR (supposed to be, the dtm head gasket is thicker than advertised) Theoretically at around 11.7:1 now.
                -schrick oversized race valves. 39mm + 32.5mm
                -30mm head, Shim under, schrick race springs and INA dlc buckets
                -BMW MS copy 312/292 cams
                -stock cam gears slotted
                -50mm CF injector airbox
                -50mm TB's from S38B38 euro
                -50/63 mm long primary rally header by M.A.T.S, the rally dude.
                -2 x 2.5" exhaust system.
                -EWP, homemade, with thermostat.
                -Homemade ethrottle system, jenvey actuator... to be tested.

                So thats basically my engine..
                Its going back into the car now,looking forward to test it again, but wont be on the road for a few weeks yet.

                Comment to your engine will only be to see how it responds on higher compression.. (at what gasket thickness have you planned it?
                Cool with the 8 injector setup, kind of regret I didn't go that way.
                Also I used the stock 50/50 header during first startup two years ago, it made 325nm and peak 315 hp @ 7500 rpm, but seemed to be a little restricted on top, maybe due to the header?
                The dual knock system I havent set up much yet, hoping to make it work...

                A little dyno teaser;
                A slow final pull. Did some testing on X pipe position and intake runner length.
                IMO, engine is choking a bit up top with 39mm valves. Definitely needs 54mm throttles, or 52mm minimum, 50mm primary tube size is already great!
                350 hp is definitely achieveable with custom crank dampers to aim for a rev limit of 8200, move the torque curve at 7000 rpm and you’ll see 380 hp easily with 12.5 CR.

                Comment


                • #39
                  Originally posted by rtalatief View Post

                  IMO, engine is choking a bit up top with 39mm valves. Definitely needs 54mm throttles, or 52mm minimum, 50mm primary tube size is already great!
                  350 hp is definitely achieveable with custom crank dampers to aim for a rev limit of 8200, move the torque curve at 7000 rpm and you’ll see 380 hp easily with 12.5 CR.
                  Yes, I agree.. its choking up.. maybe bigger throttles would be good.. but also I think the 292 ms exhaust cam is limiting them?
                  You got something similar?

                  I`ve got ms 308 and 320 cams on the shelf.. tempting to test.. never ending story
                  Also some prodrive experimnt camshafts with high lift, but they came from the 2 litre era, have no idea how they would work in this setup!

                  Comment


                  • #40
                    Originally posted by nilsp View Post

                    Yes, I agree.. its choking up.. maybe bigger throttles would be good.. but also I think the 292 ms exhaust cam is limiting them?
                    You got something similar?

                    I`ve got ms 308 and 320 cams on the shelf.. tempting to test.. never ending story
                    Also some prodrive experimnt camshafts with high lift, but they came from the 2 litre era, have no idea how they would work in this setup!
                    I dont have an s14, hence I’m looking for one for “experiments” . I understand that these engines have more bore spacing and a deck height comparable to the honda k24 engine. Same valve diameter as well! But IMO s14 is GODs gift to BMW community due to the intake port angle is better than even the honda K20/24, hence better cylinder filling characteristic IF the ports are done right.
                    from your dyno charts, I dont see the exhaust cams lacking. Looking at the max torque rpm, its already in the 6500-7000 rpm range, so do not change the exhaust at all.
                    Its choking in the intake side, find a 54mm throttle plates or some 52mm shaftless throttles, WITHOUT changing the intake port minimum cross sectional area, and just port blending the throttles to the head, while using wave tuning to aim for 6500- 7000 rpm max torque, so you can have max hp rpm at 8200.
                    Why I’m saying you are choking the engine from the intake side? You are using the same tb bore as an s54 engine, an engine with 533cc / cylinder, as oposed to 675cc / cylinder in your 2.7 L engine. In other words, your are building a torque monster for rally, rather than letting the engine sing and breathe. ( s14 and s54 engine has more or less the same port angle while the length from the valve until the throttle plates are almost the same as well )
                    54mm shaftless throttles shall do wonders for your engine, and if you can do not change the position on where the throttle is positioned. Change that with aditional 4 injectors after the throttles to feed the cylinder upwards of 5000 rpm, and 370 bhp + is a sure thing with these Godly engines.

                    Cheers.

                    Comment


                    • #41
                      It's under cammed IMO, and maybe the intake ports are too small. There are examples of the 2.5 engine running 312/292 cams on 29.5 intakes making 320hp. DTM engine used much more cam and 31.8mm intake ports with 50mm slide throttles for 360hp (ish).
                      Sport Evo No.47

                      My Sport Evo Restoration

                      Comment


                      • #42
                        Originally posted by stevesingo View Post
                        It's under cammed IMO, and maybe the intake ports are too small. There are examples of the 2.5 engine running 312/292 cams on 29.5 intakes making 320hp. DTM engine used much more cam and 31.8mm intake ports with 50mm slide throttles for 360hp (ish).
                        50mm slide throttles have no obstruction at full throttle, comparable to 54mm butterflies with shaft or 52mm shaftless butterfly throttles. Hence the recommendation is to upgrade the throttles to those sizes, while maintaining low throttle opening drivability.

                        Comment


                        • #43
                          There is no point using throttles capable of flowing 90hp/cyl when it is under cammed and under ported. Fit a MAP sensor to the ITB balance ports. That will indicate the pressure drop across the TBs.

                          The valves are not choking, 39mm is the same as the late DTM engines, but they had 31.8mm intake ports.
                          Sport Evo No.47

                          My Sport Evo Restoration

                          Comment


                          • #44
                            Originally posted by stevesingo View Post
                            There is no point using throttles capable of flowing 90hp/cyl when it is under cammed and under ported. Fit a MAP sensor to the ITB balance ports. That will indicate the pressure drop across the TBs.

                            The valves are not choking, 39mm is the same as the late DTM engines, but they had 31.8mm intake ports.
                            This is turning into an interesting discussion.
                            I cant say whats right, as mentioned many times. I`m a happy amateur finding this very interesting.

                            As mentioned, the 292/312 combo is a torque combo, and that was how the engine was planned from beginning, as a road engine.

                            My head was flow tested before install, and it has quite more flow on higher lift than these cams provide, so thats probably a sure way to gain topend.

                            Regarding MAP sensor on the intakes, I have that, and I can see the pressure start dropping after torque peak, drops from maybe 100 to 98.. can find shots from logs later.. but I assume this is exactly what youre talking about?

                            Can also see that this point of map drop has changed from last year when running a 4-1 header,where torque peak was at 6600

                            Currently I have the 4-2 manifold, and long secondarys with the x at third harmonic, 700 mm compared to 350mm, 4th harmonic when dynoed like shown here.. in theory should work, but in real life it seems to loose topend torque quite fast.
                            Unfortunately hasnt been dynoed with this setup, but can tell from the ems tables and logs.

                            next plan is to move x straight after the flange at 350mm, or maybe a little shorter.

                            Comment


                            • #45
                              Originally posted by stevesingo View Post
                              There is no point using throttles capable of flowing 90hp/cyl when it is under cammed and under ported. Fit a MAP sensor to the ITB balance ports. That will indicate the pressure drop across the TBs.

                              The valves are not choking, 39mm is the same as the late DTM engines, but they had 31.8mm intake ports.
                              Hey steve, nobody is saying the 39mm intake valves is choking the engine.. my original statement is that with 39mm intake valves, a throttle body of 50mm is choking the engine. Knowing that the throttle body position and length from the intake valves is almost the same between s54 and s14, and s54 is using 50mm tb with 35mm intake valves! So at least an s14 using 39mm intake valves shall be given a 54mm throttle body instead.

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