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Record price for an s14? [email protected]#$t crazy

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ironhead View Post

    I'm currently building another non-BMW project car. Everyone who looks at it always asks me how much I've spent. I consider it a rude question, and these are mostly old farts like me, not kids. First of all, while I have all receipts, I have never tallied them and I don't know the total. Secondly, I really don't want to know....
    LOL OMG no.
    If I ever totaled all my receipts, my silver race car would be worth more than my Gruppe A car
    jimmy p.
    87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car
    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - Street
    88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - Race (#98 SCCA SPU)
    92 E30 M Technic Cabrio - S14 POWERED!
    98 318Ti M44, Base - Morea Green
    04 Ford F350 - V10

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Ironhead View Post

      Warbird prices vary wildly.

      Last I checked, a P-51 that looked good and was in flyable condition was a $2-3 million dollar aircraft. Slightly less sexy warbirds like P-47s and F4Us were maybe $1-2 million depending on condition.

      It's misleading though. It's one of those things wherein the purchase price doesn't sound too bad (to some) but actually maintaining and flying these aircraft is astronomically expensive.

      I know a guy who used to own a T-28, not a true "warbird" and inexpensive in comparison. He used to fly it to Oshkosh every year. He said that trip alone typically cost him about $10K just in fuel and other aircraft consumables. Within the reach of many, but certainly not inexpensive.
      Warbirds are not cheap. Mustangs start about $1.8M and go up from there, there are a few on here...
      https://www.platinumfighters.com/warbirds-fighters
      The cost to restore one is high. I do know a few pretty normal everyday guys who have them, one is a crop duster, the other I think is an airline pilot. Warbirds weren't that expensive in the '70s and 80s so some people got in on them back then. My friend who has a really stunning P-51A also has a Yak 11 and a Hawker Sea Fury (that came from Iraq and needs to be restored)

      A T28 is absolutely a true warbird. Sure they were used as trainers for the Navy, however they were also used as ground attack aircraft in Viet Nam.

      Flying a warbird isn't cheap, feeding a 27 liter supercharged V12 does require some deep pockets, as is the 50 hr inspection. The insurance is also pretty high.

      Anyone have an idea which P51 the owner of the M3 has? I don't know of many P-51 owners under 65 years old. There are a few, but very few. I wonder if it might have been Steuart Walton? He has several P51s, and the only flyable F2G Super Corsair in the world. (There are two left) He would fit the profile for the average age range for M3 owners. $250K would be a drop in the bucket for him (Walton as in Walmart.)

      Will
      '69 Datsun 2000 Roadster vintage race car (Street driven on a regular basis :taz
      '59 Alfa Romeo 101 Sprint (HUGE project :uhoh
      '88 M3

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by jimmy p. View Post
        The thing I hate about it the most is now all that car people will talk about when they see any E30m3 is the value, the money, how much is it worth.
        I detest talking about a car's worth, money, etc.
        Want to ask me about its history, its heritage, what makes it special, what makes it great to drive, why I race and collect them I'm there.
        Ask me about money, what its worth, etc, I'll just bow out. I could care less.
        It's been like that for a decade now probably. I think its interesting occasionally talking about the wild increase in these cars and others, but I agree with you its tiresome when it's the only topic people want to discuss. When I got mine a few months ago, all anyone asked when they saw it was "oh how much did you pay?" I never wanted to engage in those conversations as people who ask are generally pretty assholeish about it no matter what the answer, ranging from, oh you paid too much, or, oh thats cheap, it must be rough. I just answer with "more than I can afford pal." unless it's a friend or acquaintance who is genuinely curious about the market as they want to find their own. My grandparents told me, you never ask someone what they make, or what they paid for something as it's just rude.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by RAD2LTR View Post

          A T28 is absolutely a true warbird. Sure they were used as trainers for the Navy, however they were also used as ground attack aircraft in Viet Nam.
          Yeah, I know they were used in 'Nam....I just tend to think WWII when I hear "warbird". But I would definitely call the A-1 a warbird and their history is not much different than the T-28.

          But owning a T-28 is far, far less expensive than something like a P-51 or F4U, both in terms of purchase price and upkeep.

          Comment


          • #35
            Assuming gasoline will still be available, this car may fetch even more in today's dollars if kept in same condition in 10 to 20 yrs. I've met so many newer gen kids that are enamored with this car. It definitely has a strong cult following. Get that also with the fd rx7 but surprisingly, not as much with a 98 911.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Ironhead View Post

              Yeah, I know they were used in 'Nam....I just tend to think WWII when I hear "warbird". But I would definitely call the A-1 a warbird and their history is not much different than the T-28.

              But owning a T-28 is far, far less expensive than something like a P-51 or F4U, both in terms of purchase price and upkeep.
              Agreed, a T28 is an "affordable" warbird. Not real fast, but they sound good, and are nice flying planes. I'd guess they drink about the same amount of fuel as a Mustang, 1820Ci vs 1650 Ci, but the oil consumption is higher on the T28. Now, if we are talking an F2G Super Corsair, one is trying to feed 4360 cubic inches of 28 cylindered monster.

              Will
              '69 Datsun 2000 Roadster vintage race car (Street driven on a regular basis :taz
              '59 Alfa Romeo 101 Sprint (HUGE project :uhoh
              '88 M3

              Comment


              • #37
                I think we're all familiar with the "people coming of age and finally having the funds to buy the car they dreamed of in high school" thing - we really saw it with the muscle car sales in the early/mid-00s. My question is, where are those cars' values now? (I know, I'm being lazy, I could do the research... maybe I will another time)

                When this fellow who bought his dream '68 Camaro gets too old to drive, are his kids interested? Is the next-generation down interested in paying in 2030 what he paid for that car in 2005? Or are they going to be looking at their own high school dream cars?

                What's happening with pre-war cars? I love cars in an unhealthy way, but I'm a little bit past 30 and I don't have the faintest interest in pre-war cars or know anyone my age who does. Every owner I see is an old fart. What happens when a car is so old that no one's still alive who saw it on the road when it was new?
                1989 Lachs
                1988 Lachs - sold
                1988 DS - sold
                Car blog
                Bay Area M3 FB group

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Konig View Post
                  I think we're all familiar with the "people coming of age and finally having the funds to buy the car they dreamed of in high school" thing - we really saw it with the muscle car sales in the early/mid-00s. My question is, where are those cars' values now? (I know, I'm being lazy, I could do the research... maybe I will another time)

                  When this fellow who bought his dream '68 Camaro gets too old to drive, are his kids interested? Is the next-generation down interested in paying in 2030 what he paid for that car in 2005? Or are they going to be looking at their own high school dream cars?
                  A good source for muscle car values is to watch the auction shows on TV, although they are pretty damn boring otherwise....

                  But I saw it over and over again. Unless it is something really special, like a hemi Barracuda convertible, muscle cars were no good as investments. I saw countless fully restored muscle cars and resto-mods....cars that I know damn well had over $100K of work done to them....hammer at perhaps $30-40K. The lesson gets beaten home....unless a car is ultra rare and super desirable...like a Ferrari GTO or Porsche Carrera RS or whatever, doing a full restoration makes no financial sense whatsoever.

                  The question is where in this equation does the E30M3 fit? I have always said it was made in too great numbers to ever be super valuable. Low mileage "survivor" cars will certainly have value, but that doesn't mean this guy made any kind of a wise investment. I think he paid $250k for a car that will never have true market value much over about half that. And that is if he never drives it....

                  The lesson I think, which many here do not want to hear, is that with very rare exceptions cars are simply not good investments. But we cling to the illusion that they are in order to justify the purchase of expensive toys to spouses, significant others, and to ourselves.
                  Last edited by Ironhead; 07-24-2020, 11:09 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ironhead View Post

                    A good source for muscle car values is to watch the auction shows on TV, although they are pretty damn boring otherwise....

                    But I saw it over and over again. Unless it is something really special, like a hemi Barracuda convertible, muscle cars were no good as investments. I saw countless fully restored muscle cars and resto-mods....cars that I know damn well had over $100K of work done to them....hammer at perhaps $30-40K. The lesson gets beaten home....unless a car is ultra rare and super desirable...like a Ferrari GTO or Porsche Carrera RS or whatever, doing a full restoration makes no financial sense whatsoever.

                    The question is where in this equation does the E30M3 fit? I have always said it was made in too great numbers to ever be super valuable. Low mileage "survivor" cars will certainly have value, but that doesn't mean this guy made any kind of a wise investment. I think he paid $250k for a car that will never have true market value much over about half that. And that is if he never drives it....

                    The lesson I think, which many here do not want to hear, is that with very rare exceptions cars are simply not good investments. But we cling to the illusion that they are in order to justify the purchase of expensive toys to spouses, significant others, and to ourselves.
                    I think that's a healthy, eyes-wide-open perspective, and I agree. Even if they don't triple in value, it's nice that they at least hold steady and rise a bit. My Focus RS, despite being new and modern and capable, will cost far more in the long run that either of my hobby cars.
                    1989 Lachs
                    1988 Lachs - sold
                    1988 DS - sold
                    Car blog
                    Bay Area M3 FB group

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Konig View Post

                      I think that's a healthy, eyes-wide-open perspective, and I agree. Even if they don't triple in value, it's nice that they at least hold steady and rise a bit. My Focus RS, despite being new and modern and capable, will cost far more in the long run that either of my hobby cars.
                      Yeah.

                      I paid $12500 for my M3 in 2002. It is highly modified, so I know I could not get more than perhaps $35K for it...maybe not even that. But it isn't the worst thing to have a hobby/toy car that at least retains some value, and some return on the major bucks I have put into it over the years. When I quote these figures, people say, "wow, great investment!" Uh, no....not at all. Two S14 builds in that time, countless other mods, corrections, repairs, insurance, etc...etc.

                      If I had paid $12500 in 2002, corrected the tired parts and weird stuff the P/O had done to it for maybe $10K, done a stock rebuild for $6kish, left it otherwise stock, didn't drive it, today it would have 95K miles. It would be an original car in which I had $28.5K invested. Factor in 18 years of insurance and other expenses, maybe sell the car for $50k. I would be surprised if the true adjusted profit would be more than $5-6k. And owning the car would have just been a PITA since I couldn't drive it. F*** that plan. I would rather have my bastardized car I have had a blast with, continue to enjoy to this day, hell with the value.

                      The really sad thing, if I ever wanted to sell (I don't) I am almost certain the best financial return would be to part it out.
                      Last edited by Ironhead; 07-24-2020, 01:24 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I dont want any of my cars to be an "investment", I want them to be fun and interesting and engaging to DRIVE.
                        If I could snap my fingers right now and wish ALL E30M3 values everywhere to go back to late 90s I would.
                        I personally would stand to lose significantly at that wish being granted,,, and I would do it again and again.

                        That way we the people who love these cars and "get" them would still have access to them to race and track and drive as they were meant to.
                        Should something bad happen, we would still be able to buy another one and start over.
                        In todays climate you are facing,,, well what do I want to race now??

                        The "only" good thing to come out of this bubble is that it has stifled / stopped the swappers, and that I am hoping some S14s are finding their way back into E30M3s.
                        Otherwise its all just bad.
                        Last edited by jimmy p.; 07-24-2020, 02:16 PM.
                        jimmy p.
                        87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car
                        88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - Street
                        88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - Race (#98 SCCA SPU)
                        92 E30 M Technic Cabrio - S14 POWERED!
                        98 318Ti M44, Base - Morea Green
                        04 Ford F350 - V10

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I hear you all I paid $3500 shipped from California for my m3 22 years ago bought on eBay no less it’s had a full glass out repaint by VSR and cats plus a few trips to nj to visit don fields to rebuild my diff with a 4.27 and suspension upgrades but mostly the car is trouble free as my daily for the first 4 years I owned it winter runs were entertaining to say the least ! It’s about due for an engine re build and I know I’m over $30k in costs but I don’t think $80k would buy it from me today
                          Mike

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Westopher View Post
                            The buyer says in the comments he owns a p-51 mustang. A fighter jet. A fucking fighter jet.
                            Money means nothing to them. This was the type of financial indiscretion of one of us buying our friends an extra round of shots at last call. When you look at it from that angle, it makes a lot more sense.
                            Did Tom Cruise buy it?
                            :burn:

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by jimmy p. View Post
                              I dont want any of my cars to be an "investment", I want them to be fun and interesting and engaging to DRIVE.
                              If I could snap my fingers right now and wish ALL E30M3 values everywhere to go back to late 90s I would.
                              I personally would stand to lose significantly at that wish being granted,,, and I would do it again and again.


                              The "only" good thing to come out of this bubble is that it has stifled / stopped the swappers, and that I am hoping some S14s are finding their way back into E30M3s.
                              Otherwise its all just bad.

                              Exactly !!!

                              Much to my amazement some folks asked me a few days ago why I drive my car? I looked at them in horror ! They kept going on and on about how valuable the car is, how i shouldn't put any miles on it blah blah blah ! I told them that they just don't get it....this is, possibly, one of the best drivers cars ever built. I didn't buy it to look at it or as an investment.......i bought it to experience the wonders of its S14 and sublime handling.

                              I told the jokers that you only live once and that money in itself doesn't guarantee happiness......but a well running E30 M3 with a strong S14 sure will !!!!



                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Ironhead View Post

                                Yeah.

                                I paid $12500 for my M3 in 2002. It is highly modified, so I know I could not get more than perhaps $35K for it...maybe not even that. But it isn't the worst thing to have a hobby/toy car that at least retains some value, and some return on the major bucks I have put into it over the years. When I quote these figures, people say, "wow, great investment!" Uh, no....not at all. Two S14 builds in that time, countless other mods, corrections, repairs, insurance, etc...etc.

                                If I had paid $12500 in 2002, corrected the tired parts and weird stuff the P/O had done to it for maybe $10K, done a stock rebuild for $6kish, left it otherwise stock, didn't drive it, today it would have 95K miles. It would be an original car in which I had $28.5K invested. Factor in 18 years of insurance and other expenses, maybe sell the car for $50k. I would be surprised if the true adjusted profit would be more than $5-6k. And owning the car would have just been a PITA since I couldn't drive it. F*** that plan. I would rather have my bastardized car I have had a blast with, continue to enjoy to this day, hell with the value.

                                The really sad thing, if I ever wanted to sell (I don't) I am almost certain the best financial return would be to part it out.
                                I feel like we own the same car and I could not agree more.
                                -kevin

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