TMS article on E30M3 values

[mlytle]

well said.....
http://enews.turnermotorsport.com/q/...MJUMQVsqScdSQn

[Westopher]

I mean, he’s right about part of it, but he’s choosing to leave out the part of the values that dictate his pity party isn’t fully accurate.

These cars are getting OLD, and as a result, need work and parts that are becoming astronomical. Why would someone sell their car for 20k when they have put hundreds of hours and thousands upon thousand of dollars into them just to keep them running, solid and safe for years to come? There aren’t a high number of them around, and they aren’t easily replaceable. Every year that number gets smaller, and the amount of people that dreamed of them at 10 years old reaches a point in their lives where “if 50k is what it takes, well, I got 50k to make it happen.”
Yes it’s sad to see them packed away, being flipped and flipped again and sitting on specialty dealers and speculators floors, but there are still plenty of us that drive them, love them, and are doing what it takes to get 10-20 more years out of a relic that is difficult to do that with. Not to mention as inequality spirals all over the world, us lower upper middle class folks money just isn’t worth that much anymore. The economic division in the world is causing this boom, and it goes far deeper than cars sitting in garages.
I wish my car didn’t cost me what it did, and I wish parts didn’t cost me what they did, and I wish that I wasn’t throwing money at things the guy before me should have done, but so be it, and at the end of it all, if I ever sell, my time, effort, and money spent is worth something in that final price I let it go for.

[jimmy p.]

well said.....
http://enews.turnermotorsport.com/q/...MJUMQVsqScdSQn

Well that was pretty much spot on.
A certain points I felt like I was reading a compilation of posts I had made on assorted forums LOL.

This part is a huge pet peeve of mine which I have also posted elsewhere.

It becomes an opportunity to brag about how much you paid for it. Suddenly, the focus is on the money, not the car. Owning an M3 doesn’t bring statements about how it feels to drive a momentum car anymore. Nor does it have the chance to show why a purely analog race car is such a memorable and engaging experience. It declares the bragging rights that say ‘I own something that shows off how much money I have.’ It’s like buying a Rolex and then never wearing it.

And this part - spot on:

The money overshadowing the car is perhaps the saddest part of the E30 M3’s legacy. It was once the pinnacle of touring car performance, then it was a club racer's dream car, and now it’s destined to be a hermetically sealed garage queen never to see the road or track again. Partly because the car is worth so much but mostly because the people who buy them aren’t buying them to drive, they’re buying them to say they own one. They’ve become a fashion statement, which is something the E30 M3 was never meant to be.

I wonder who writes those for TMS?
Someone who gets it LOL.

[M-technik-3]

Was it me or what happened to showing the E30 m3 vs the plethora of e39 m5 which is a great car but not what the article is. That being said it looks like Ohio which is where ECS started and TMS name sake is ECS.

[Ironhead]

As we have discussed before, I think EAG carries by far the majority of the responsibility for overvaluing and completely ruining the E30M3 as a driver's car. Would it have happened without them? Maybe, but not to the same extent and it would have taken much longer. They are now doing their best to do the same to other enthusiast BMWs.

Of course, BMW is also part of the problem, simply by allowing so many necessary parts to become NLA.

Canepa in my opinion has done the same thing with vintage racing cars. Buy them all up, restore them to concours condition, and ask 3X their true market value to sell them, even if it takes years. The market has come to the point that to own a vintage racer you either have to buy from Canepa, or from someone who previously bought from Canepa, and thus pay a hugely inflated price for the car. Vintage racing is now entirely the province of the very, very wealthy only.

I guess in a way we have to admire the ability to create your own market, lock it down, and become rich in the process.

[mlytle]

I see three types of e30m3 owners.

1/ the look at me I spent a butt load of money so I can say I own one crowd. This drives prices up.

2/ those that see the prices going up and just park and polish their cars afraid they might hurt the value if they use it.

3/ those that bought them to drive, don't care so much about making money off it and get their value out of the car with big stupid grins on their faces driving them.

[jimmy p.]

As we have discussed before, I think EAG carries by far the majority of the responsibility for overvaluing and completely ruining the E30M3 as a driver's car. Would it have happened without them? Maybe, but not to the same extent and it would have taken much longer. They are now doing their best to do the same to other enthusiast BMWs..

As you all know to the point of I am sure you are all sick of hearing it from me, I aim the largest part of my contempt of the situation at EAG. No I do not believe we would be where we are to the extent we are without EAG. They are 100% to blame for the situation that exists now.

Well the bad situation as it exists for those of us examples of #3 in Marshalls post (and to an extent it turned some people into #2s).
Think about all the cars you hear about getting turned "backwards" from track cars to street cars to sell.

Ironhead - I was unaware of the Canepa situation but I honestly see some great deals on vintage race cars going around. I never thought that was a thing. Old race cars to me always seem like a screaming deal. If I won a lottery (any lottery) that would be my biggest downfall, buying up all the good deals on old race cars.
What types of vintage race cars are they doing this to?

[Narayan3]

This article sums up my pet peeve with EAG, BAT, all those stupid YouTube videos with e30 M3s that don't involve a DIY fix or restoration and e30 M3 price speculation. I bought my car to drive and I still do almost every weekend. I envy those who race them, I cannot bring myself to do that. I stopped driving it in traffic because of all the inattentive drivers and 6000lb SUVs that are either doing 20 below or 80. But I see no point in owning one if you are afraid to drive it. At the end of the day I own it only because of how I feel when I drive it. I don't understand how one could buy this and put 1-2K miles over a couple of years and then sell it as so many on BAT seem to be.

[Ironhead]

Ironhead - I was unaware of the Canepa situation but I honestly see some great deals on vintage race cars going around. I never thought that was a thing. Old race cars to me always seem like a screaming deal. If I won a lottery (any lottery) that would be my biggest downfall, buying up all the good deals on old race cars.
What types of vintage race cars are they doing this to?

Well, go to https://canepa.com/ and look at his inventory. I admit, some of them include Porsche 917K and cars of that ilk that are going to command big dollars no matter who is selling them. But most of the racing cars he has for sale have been for sale for years....because he is asking huge sums for them. Prices are not listed....you have to inquire....which I did on a couple of cars and couldn't even believe what they were asking.

He tends to sell cars with notable history that might be accepted at the Monterey Historics and such events.

Don't get me wrong....many of these cars are indeed worth $$$$$$$. But IMHO Canepa is asking even way more than that.....

[Konig]

Does anyone have stats or numbers on the claim that these cars are all being locked away? Is there any evidence beyond anecdotal that these poor M3s are all being sealed into bubbles by collectors? I'm so tired of the classic tropes the Turner author is rolling out here.

If we're doing anecdotes, here's mine: the Bay Area M3 owners group is full of awesome owners who drive their cars. Very few are stock. We do drives, we do meets, loan tools, trade parts. I do not see evidence of the claim that these cars are all creampuffs or that we owners are fad-chasing wealth-flaunters.

To my eyes the Turner piece is pandering to an audience, repeating the tired opinions that some E30 M3 owners eat up. We get it, the cars used to be cheap, they used to be about driving and tracking, blah blah blah. I don't need to hear any more humble-brags about how someone got their car for $8k in 2003. I paid a lot of money for my most recent M3 and I bought it to drive it. Value increase is a double-edged sword, but it's either this (high prices) or the cars fall into obscurity, there is no interest to refurbish or repair them, or reproduce important parts. People with specific knowledge disappear and there is no incentive for anyone else to pick it up.

Also, when the author says...

I can understand a Ferrari 250 GTO or a Porsche 356 living their golden years as collector showpieces because they were always meant to be symbolic of wealth, status, and taste.

...I'm left scratching my head. The 250 GTO was "always meant to be symbolic of wealth, status, and taste"? What? It's right there in the name, Gran Turismo Omologato, i.e. homologation, i.e. built to race, as it did with great success. THAT is why it is arguably the greatest car of all time. It was Ferrari at its golden era peak. And 250 GTOs DO still get flogged on tracks around the world.

There might be something real to talk about here with classic car market speculation and inflation, but this Turner piece is lazy pandering writing and it does not advance the conversation in a constructive way.

[babraham]

This part is a huge pet peeve of mine which I have also posted elsewhere.

Yes, for sure! I've brought my E30 M3 to more than a few local car shows.
But I can't stand every 3rd/4th person asking me "how much did you pay for this?".
First off, who does that and thinks that is a normal question to ask someone?
Second, they get all frustrated when I don't tell them.
It's ridiculous.

[Ironhead]

Does anyone have stats or numbers on the claim that these cars are all being locked away? Is there any evidence beyond anecdotal that these poor M3s are all being sealed into bubbles by collectors?

Just more anecdotal evidence....

I used to see at least one or two other E30M3s at every track day 10-15 years ago. I haven't seen even one in the last eight years.

The traffic on S14.net is another bit. Around 2005-2007, the traffic here was 15X what it is now, with topics like A/N or standalone engine management, cages, brake upgrades, suspension mods, etc. Not only is nearly all traffic here gone, but much of what is here has to do with sourcing NLA parts from BMW, finding an "original" tool kit for the trunk, or advice on diagnosing/repairing stock cars.

I have no doubt a lot of these cars have been sequestered by collectors. But, not all have, thankfully.

[babarabus]

I recently bought one after selling my old M3 (force of circumstance) and thinking about it for 10 years, its not about the price of it, its because I love the e30 M3 its my dream car.

I bought a "driver" so I could use it and other people could see it and enjoy on the streets, literally it was for me and others to enjoy.

Now this is where it switches, the car wasnt a driver, it was horrible, the engine needs rebuilding, the firewall is rotten, the suspension needs renewing, interior and I have OCD/Perfectionism when it comes to my cars. Now I'm in into a full nut and bolt restore and 40k in parts that brings.

The car is worth restoring due to the value of them, however after a full restore am I going to use it as much as I wanted to originally? Its not that im worried about it getting hit as it can be fixed especially with people reproducing panels these days, but its the effort and time i will have put into the restore. Plus the price of parts.

[njboy]

The internet folklore of this car started for me in the early 2000’s. I remember reading forum posts on how great the E30 M3 is and in my search for my own holy grail I bought one in 2007. Still have it. My point is the appeal is part self proclaimed prophecy and indeed truly earned creds. This is how legends are made.
Unfortunately the bubblization of these cars is concerning because as parts demand drops the costs of parts will steadily rise as BMW decides to add more NLA to their lists. I agree that if you really like driving your car then drive it! Wear out those parts and keep
suppliers in business.

[Mpoweroo1]

Yes, for sure! I've brought my E30 M3 to more than a few local car shows.
But I can't stand every 3rd/4th person asking me "how much did you pay for this?".
First off, who does that and thinks that is a normal question to ask someone?
Second, they get all frustrated when I don't tell them.
It's ridiculous.

People cry when I tell them what I paid for mine over 15 years ago.

While mine is not EAG perfect, its still priceless to me and I drive it every chance I get. I told my wife, that I will be buried in the sucker!

As for the ending statement in the article, I truly believe we need to find the right owners if we do decide to sell. I recently sold my low mile e39 M5. I actually sold it to a chap for several thousands less to other offers I had, due to him being a long time owner, forum member and BMWCCA member. He also is current care taker of other important BMW motorsport vehicles. He also gave me the first right of refusal shall he ever consider selling. And just so everyone knows, the other offer was from our friends in Ohio.