TMS article on E30M3 values

[Konig]

These cars with motorsport history are a bargain compared to 90's JDM cars that increased value mainly due to movies. Disagree with the article, money talks and when it comes to sale, the one with the biggest offer will usually win.

If you want to talk homologation cars with motorsport history that are a bargain...











I bought this 1992 Nissan Skyline GT-R two years ago for $33k with 85k original kilometers. Values are rising, but even so these cars are an unbelievable bargain when compared like-for-like against our M3s. The R32 GTR is a homologation special built for Nissan to go Group A racing. It won all 29 races it entered in the Japanese touring car championship, won three titles in a row in Australian Group A racing, and earned the nickname "Godzilla" from the Australian press before being banned.

It came from the factory with a 2.6-liter straight six, twin-turbocharged, individual throttle bodies, and an 8000-rpm redline. In addition to the four-wheel drive system, it had four-wheel steer... in 1989. It was underrated at 276 horsepower from the factory (due to the gentleman's agreement on a power cap between Japanese OEMs) and, with the replacement of one boost signal line (again, marked with yellow stripe from the factory - hint hint) it picks up about 4psi and 60 horsepower, no other changes.

I don't want to start a fight here on the M3 forum, so I won't say anything more than: if I could only keep one car, between this and my M3... it wouldn't be the M3. The Skyline is unbelievably capable and the motor is a masterpiece. Like I said, prices are increasing, but they are still a huge bargain compared to E30s. I don't know why the M3 crowd isn't all over these.

R33 GTRs are similar in price to the R32 and climbing; R34 GTRs have exploded in price across the past five years. Some of that is due to the Fast and Furious crowd, a lot of it due to the lower production volume than the R32 (11.5k versus 44k) and the perception of the R34 as the ultimate iteration of the RB26-powered Skyline series. My generation fell in love with the JDM cars due to video, but maybe not the video you think (F&F). Best Motoring and Option DVDs made legends of these cars.

R32 GTR dominates in Australia
https://youtu.be/f4N-z9ExVLY

Calsonic R32 GTR tribute car incredible Goodwood lap
https://youtu.be/5MMD4tssbVM?t=134

Taisan R32 GTR Group A
https://youtu.be/DlljV0yAflM

Mine's R34 GTR
https://youtu.be/oc1oYUO_ll4

[Konig]

My 1000th post on the forum ended up being me saying I like my GTR better than my M3. Sad :-(

[Ironhead]

I don't want to start a fight here on the M3 forum, so I won't say anything more than: if I could only keep one car, between this and my M3... it wouldn't be the M3. The Skyline is unbelievably capable and the motor is a masterpiece. Like I said, prices are increasing, but they are still a huge bargain compared to E30s. I don't know why the M3 crowd isn't all over these.

I think there is still a perception among many that German engineering/quality is better than Japanese. It isn't, not in any way, but perception is reality and still drives desirability of collector cars.

[dreeves]

My reaction to the Turner article was the same as it is to any article that's complaining too loudly about what are ultimately deeply human phenomena: somewhere, I hear someone playing the world's smallest violin...

1. One of the reasons these cars are becoming more and more valuable is because with a few exceptions, modern sports cars/sedans are pretty disappointing. Sure, they're fast, but they're ultimately not that fun, and the added speed is unusable on the street. Cars from the late eighties and nineties are also, IMO, the first generation of collector cars that are reliable and civilized enough to actually serve as transportation.

2. The rise in value of the E30 M3 isn't unique. Tried to buy a 964 Porsche recently? It's about the same rise in percentage terms as the M3. There's a power law effect with collector car values, and the E30 M3 is one of those cars that for whatever reason has attracted a collector following that's a multiple of

3. EAG isn't to blame. They're riding a wave that's not of their creation. No amount of marketing from an Ohio used car shop would convince people to buy a car they didn't already want. What EAG has done well is price their cars for the marginal buyer who wants a car that's vetted and who doesn't want to wait for a bargain; and they're patient enough to wait for the buyer who will pay their price. And the sale prices usually establish a high water mark for the time.

4. It won't rise forever. 60s muscle cars have flattened off as the people who were attracted to them have aged out. Same will happen to our cars. Accept it in advance :-)

Don't get me wrong - I never bought my M3 as an investment; and the financial side of me would trade the rise in value for the availability of cheap S14 engines in a heartbeat. But I ultimately have to accept it.

[Konig]

My reaction to the Turner article was the same as it is to any article that's complaining too loudly about what are ultimately deeply human phenomena: somewhere, I hear someone playing the world's smallest violin...

1. One of the reasons these cars are becoming more and more valuable is because with a few exceptions, modern sports cars/sedans are pretty disappointing. Sure, they're fast, but they're ultimately not that fun, and the added speed is unusable on the street. Cars from the late eighties and nineties are also, IMO, the first generation of collector cars that are reliable and civilized enough to actually serve as transportation.

2. The rise in value of the E30 M3 isn't unique. Tried to buy a 964 Porsche recently? It's about the same rise in percentage terms as the M3. There's a power law effect with collector car values, and the E30 M3 is one of those cars that for whatever reason has attracted a collector following that's a multiple of

3. EAG isn't to blame. They're riding a wave that's not of their creation. No amount of marketing from an Ohio used car shop would convince people to buy a car they didn't already want. What EAG has done well is price their cars for the marginal buyer who wants a car that's vetted and who doesn't want to wait for a bargain; and they're patient enough to wait for the buyer who will pay their price. And the sale prices usually establish a high water mark for the time.

4. It won't rise forever. 60s muscle cars have flattened off as the people who were attracted to them have aged out. Same will happen to our cars. Accept it in advance :-)

Don't get me wrong - I never bought my M3 as an investment; and the financial side of me would trade the rise in value for the availability of cheap S14 engines in a heartbeat. But I ultimately have to accept it.

Well said. Point #1 you make I think is very important. Who wants a modern sports car? You can't use it. I've driven a friend's M2 comp, and I just helped a friend drive his new GT350 halfway across the country. They're incredible cars, but the performance ceiling is so far beyond what is safe or comfortable to use on the road, what's the point? And those are two of the best sports cars still on the market today at any reasonable price point.

If I'm shopping for a street sports car and I have, say, $70k in my pocket... what am I getting new? A base Boxster, maybe? M2 comp or GT350? Both are out of production or on the way out. A Supra? Corvette? All are heavier and more complex than older generations of car to meet crash safety and emissions. They get tons of power to make up for it, but again, beyond what's usable on the street. Not to mention, they are all depreciating assets (at least in the short/near-term). No, I'm going to take my $70k and get something from the glory days, the sweet spot where cars were modern but had usable power and felt good to drive. Something like, I don't know, an early 90s M3 or 911? Something I lusted after in high school? Sounds about right. And you know it will hold value, to boot.

The future of internal combustion sports cars doesn't look so good, so it's no wonder that people are looking back.

[basketcase]

If you want to talk homologation cars with motorsport history that are a bargain...











I bought this 1992 Nissan Skyline GT-R two years ago for $33k with 85k original kilometers. Values are rising, but even so these cars are an unbelievable bargain when compared like-for-like against our M3s. The R32 GTR is a homologation special built for Nissan to go Group A racing. It won all 29 races it entered in the Japanese touring car championship, won three titles in a row in Australian Group A racing, and earned the nickname "Godzilla" from the Australian press before being banned.

It came from the factory with a 2.6-liter straight six, twin-turbocharged, individual throttle bodies, and an 8000-rpm redline. In addition to the four-wheel drive system, it had four-wheel steer... in 1989. It was underrated at 276 horsepower from the factory (due to the gentleman's agreement on a power cap between Japanese OEMs) and, with the replacement of one boost signal line (again, marked with yellow stripe from the factory - hint hint) it picks up about 4psi and 60 horsepower, no other changes.

I don't want to start a fight here on the M3 forum, so I won't say anything more than: if I could only keep one car, between this and my M3... it wouldn't be the M3. The Skyline is unbelievably capable and the motor is a masterpiece. Like I said, prices are increasing, but they are still a huge bargain compared to E30s. I don't know why the M3 crowd isn't all over these.

R33 GTRs are similar in price to the R32 and climbing; R34 GTRs have exploded in price across the past five years. Some of that is due to the Fast and Furious crowd, a lot of it due to the lower production volume than the R32 (11.5k versus 44k) and the perception of the R34 as the ultimate iteration of the RB26-powered Skyline series. My generation fell in love with the JDM cars due to video, but maybe not the video you think (F&F). Best Motoring and Option DVDs made legends of these cars.

R32 GTR dominates in Australia
https://youtu.be/f4N-z9ExVLY

Calsonic R32 GTR tribute car incredible Goodwood lap
https://youtu.be/5MMD4tssbVM?t=134

Taisan R32 GTR Group A
https://youtu.be/DlljV0yAflM

Mine's R34 GTR
https://youtu.be/oc1oYUO_ll4

I love the GTR and I am jealous of your garage. But I would prefer the M3 over the GTR.

The M3 is RWD and naturally aspirated. It has that cool 80s euro interior. And looks so good. These things are just tipping me in favour of the M3 but only just. I would almost equally want an R32 in the garage.

And finding an R32 that has not been molested is hard too. They almost all have had the boost turned up, stock intake and air filters gone, stock exhaust gone, forged pistons installed by who knows... And the interior... Pod gauges on the a pillar etc... One of those double din aftermarket radios, the canon muffler.. I've seen it all.

And RHD. I'm in Canada now so RHD is sketchy to drive. If I was still in Australia no problem. Also much easier to lose your license in an R32 than an M3. It's more of a cop bait car.

Those are the negatives which would keep me in the M3 camp but it's not to say I don't love the R32. It's a weapon and looks the business and has the racing history too.

In Australia we got some R32's that were Australian delivered and complied, I remember Kerry Packer bought one. We didn't get many and they are worth a premium now to a grey import and some have been left stock. That's the one to buy if you live down under. But I would say they are mid to high 100k if you could find one.

[mlytle]

And finding an R32 that has not been molested is hard too. They almost all have had the boost turned up, stock intake and air filters gone, stock exhaust gone, forged pistons installed by who knows... And the interior... Pod gauges on the a pillar etc... One of those double din aftermarket radios, the canon muffler.. I've seen it all.

LOL...there are a significant number of M3's that have also fallen to the oversized wheels, slammed suspensions, giant subwoofers, gauges, loud exhaust, and engine swaps in the pursuit of a "look". whether it is called "F&F" or "DTM" is just continental semantics.

[Konig]

Well, there may be a fight yet for favorites. When I get my M3 back with a displacement increase, cams, and carbon airbox I expect it to be a very narrow contest!

I didn't mean to pit the two cars against each other, both are incredible. I mainly wanted to point out a homologation glory-days car that's available and, in my opinion, overlooked by a lot of people. Drive one if you get the chance and you might find yourself shopping!

[mlytle]

All my cars are my favorites, or I wouldn't have them....but.... If they all had to go but one, the E36 M3 is the one I am keeping!

[erikm54life]

Well, there may be a fight yet for favorites. When I get my M3 back with a displacement increase, cams, and carbon airbox I expect it to be a very narrow contest!

I didn't mean to pit the two cars against each other, both are incredible. I mainly wanted to point out a homologation glory-days car that's available and, in my opinion, overlooked by a lot of people. Drive one if you get the chance and you might find yourself shopping!

A BMW M specialist friend of mine in the UK...Darren Farrell.... took me for a ride in his when I went up to see him in Colchester. It was unbelievable...well , at least to me, the way the car was taking corners. The exhaust note and the dump valve sound was a sheer joy. His car has fantastic purple metallic paint and he goes around with a white cotton cloth removing all the fingerprints on it !!! He's absolutely mad about the car and I could clearly see why. Great set of well maintained motors you have there.

[Steve88M3]

The other thing about electric cars is that you lose that element of freedom. On a long road trip....when the 300 mile range is up...I guess you stop for the night and hope you can find a place to plug it in?

Like everything else today, a lot of the hype about electric cars is politically driven, and thus severely spun or completely untrue. They still need to be powered, and if everyone suddenly switched to electric cars, the power grid would need major expansion. Coal is dirty, the burning of any fossil fuels is non-PC, no one wants more dams built, and you might as well not even talk about nuclear. Does anyone actually believe that 50 million electric cars in the US are all going to be powered by solar panels and wind generators?

If we abandon the unicorn riding utopian BS that we are constantly bombarded with, nuclear power emerges as our best option, and the only option that can actually meet our power demands with available technology.

I agree with you, but to be fair, if you're doing away with the internal combustion engine, you're also removing a huge chunk of demand from petroleum production, which produces more carbon in aggregate than electricity generation. Electric cars also eliminate tailpipe emissions, and nitrogen oxide is a major component of air pollution.

The real problem with EVs is the rare earth requirements, the mining of which is extraordinarily destructive (not to mention you replace funding petro-dictatorships with funding a genocidal-one party state). I'm not sure which is worse.

In any case, I'm also not sold on electric cars. The greenest thing to do, if you want to be green, is to keep driving a car made a long time ago. Even if it doesn't have the environmental credentials of a modern car, driving a car for a long time would bring your daily carbon footprint down considerably.

Long live the E30 M3.

[dreeves]

In that sense, the best thing to do is live in a place where you don't have to drive, and in a temperate zone where you don't need much heat or A/c, and share walls with your neighbors. I often go for weeks without driving. The cars are for fun.

I do think electric cars are ultimately a better solution. Agree with Steve that rare earth requirements are the biggest lift. It's not all figured out, but coal is disappearing and the cost of renewable energy is declining fast.

[Ausm3]

These cars with motorsport history are a bargain compared to 90's JDM cars that increased value mainly due to movies. Disagree with the article, money talks and when it comes to sale, the one with the biggest offer will usually win.

Konig I agree with you re R32 GTR, I love them and also the less desirable GTST. Fully aware of their motorsport heritage and clearly they dominated once on scene. I view the R32 GTR as an 1989, but yes continued into early 90s. Not sure the R32 GTR are bargains, now asking close to $100k in Australia but I'm not tracking what they are worth in other countries. R33 seems to be the least popular however and probably not as good looking as R32 or R34.

My comment was in relation to other JDM cars with no heritage but hyped up prices. I don't need to name them.

[proctor750]

There's a musician here in Nashville that is an enthusiast of stringed instruments. He laments the same thing about some of the best examples always ending up in the hands of people who do not know how to play them. It's market forces that don't have to be rational to everyone. The person who paid the premium has satisfied their want regardless of his rationale.
This is why Ferrari hated his clientele. He despised their total lack of understanding/appreciation for the engineering and racing pedigree. But he needed them to fund his operation. If it weren't for those status seeking buyers, he may never have created many of the greatest racing cars.
In other words, there's an ass for every seat.

I personally do not care at all what it's value is. I bought mine to drive it and drive it HARD. I would daily it if it weren't on jack stands waiting on standalone and wiring. Luckily I got a terrible example with shit paint and I treat it no differently than my various other E30's of the past. It's a tool. I like to use the rear wing and front fender gutters as my toolbox when I work on it. I may never repaint it. Mechanically it will be as good as I can get it. The stuff you can't see but feel.