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100hp per liter SAE from stock S14-B23 2.3

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  • hardtailer
    replied
    Good read, Anri.
    Care to elaborate on your custom cam grind?

    Leave a comment:


  • First E30 M3
    replied
    Originally posted by stevesingo View Post
    Sound's like you are having fun.

    Dyno losses are not a fixed % of a measured power. The greatest factor is road speed as the tyre roller interface is a greater consumer of power than the g.box, prop shaft, diff, driveshafts and their associated support bearings. I trust you are using the same gear, diff ratio and tyres for all E34 tests, and the tie down is the same. In such a case, expressing the loss as a % is not so wide of the mark. But, a different car will have a different loss at a given road speed and more so at a different road speed.

    But, it is not stock.

    -Intake and exhaust custom grind profile based on the cyl head flow I have.( I work with grinder and I love the freedom of making any custom profile I want to try )
    -long tube headers.
    -I custom 3D printed velocity stacks.
    -Hi flow exhaust system (S85 Catalyst converters but placed way behind the trans to reduced back pressure)
    -Haltech Engine management. coil-on-plug
    -Large plastic intake box, same as S14 CF.

    If we are talking external bolt ons, then a header and intake lengths tuned for peak power will help some, but probably kill torque somewhere else in the rev range.

    FWIW, the Evo 2 engine comes the closest to 100bhp/lt DIN at 220hp from 2302cc. I'm pretty sure just a change of EMS to an A/N system would yield 100bhp/lt. On a pre '89 engine probably not as the intake cam is only 248deg.

    What is the cam specs on the S38 engines?
    Hi Steve,

    I get it its not stock as I stated from the beginning. Okay in my mind is somehow stock ))))) bottom is all stock, head is all stock ehh

    If anything the big boy cars will have larger losses, longer drive shaft, larger differential gear 210mm vs 188mm, larger output flanges, heavier tires at 275 rear and also much heavier wheels. When I tested the E30M3 had the OEM 15s. I am very consistent on the tire pressure as well, straps as well. Factory don't lie all of the test I have done is based from factory BHP numbers.

    Yes you can trust me on this I am very specific all the runs to be done on 1:1. US G265 and G280 all test done on the same 4th gear which is 1:1 so no difference there. The dyno owner complains often that I am wearing out his dyno....

    The Stock camshaft intake and exhaust spec on the S38-B35 engine is 248 Degrees same as on S14 US 2.3 and when I ran it thru "Cam-Analyzer" the lift was lost a bit at 10.3mm normal ware also duration.

    Most BMW I have measured the power on this specific Dyno-Jet the gear box, wheels tires, drive shaft length etc they are very very similar as you say similar parts.

    On the E39M5 test. A day before my Dyno appointment I used the same Dyno-Jet 14.7% (my guesstimate was ~335rwhp) drive train loss and here we go it never fails that 14.7% drive train loss. US S62 is rated 395HP SAE - 14.7%=336rwhp on DynoJet. Inside the the video you can note that I used 5th gear as the G420 gear box 1:1 is 5th not 4th as E34/E30. You can note how long the runs was, almost forever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z1hdTtCLl4&t=9s

    I have done quite a lot of different BMWs E46M3s, E24M6 3.5s, E39M5, E30M3, E92M3, E30 spec and all of these cars show exact same 14-14.7.

    Here is a test I did with my own M6 track toy in the back I run 315/35/17 mounted on 12J wheel NT01 tire and always on the back of my minds is wanted to see how much power is this wide tire robbing. 3 runs on 315. stop the car wheel out. Take a second set of throwing starts 255 40 17 same pressure back on the dyno and power shows in 2-3rwhp apart in which I don't know is it coming from the fact that the combustion chamber gets hot, or its intake manifold.

    You mentioned Road test ? Sure I did this as well wanted to find out also on real world what is the difference between 315 and 235 tire width. A buddy with E34M5 3.8 and I did side by side from 20mph at 2nd gear both cars 3.91 210mm. His car and my car at that time were bone stock no cams no stand alone. Test 1) was 235 45 17 25.3" diameter we started at 20mph 2nd gear up to 150mph we were death even side by side not kidding, we did 4-5 times and every time was absolute same. Back to the shop swap tires and back on the same exact spot same speed same all 20mph up to 150mph. With the 315 up to 135mph we were side by side !!! from 135mhp up to 150mph I lost by 1.5 fender, no kidding you. I love testing things on road.

    I was very conservative saying 100hp per liter...but deep down I am sure that the 0.7 More CR will bring food on the table and honestly deep down I am shooting for 215RWHP or ~250- 255BHP SAE crank this will push to about 108-110HP SAE per liter, but time will tell.

    Next week I have to dial upgrade 2 parts on the S38 and its back on the dyno. If I make chilled pass as I call it at 305rwhp and hot passes at 300rwhp then will have clear picture of is it possible to push achieve 110HP per liter from S14 2.3.


    Regards,
    Anri

    Leave a comment:


  • jimmy p.
    replied
    Originally posted by 1990m3 View Post
    I don't think 100hp / liter is a problem at all. My 2.3 race motor with the first overbore (like .001) made 250whp on a mustang dyno. I know dyno's are all over the place but that is clearly well over 100hp / liter regardless of how you calculate. It's a race motor with many non factory parts, but it makes it easily.
    Oh yeah, once you get inside the motor, cams, pistons, porting its easy on an S14.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1990m3
    replied
    I don't think 100hp / liter is a problem at all. My 2.3 race motor with the first overbore (like .001) made 250whp on a mustang dyno. I know dyno's are all over the place but that is clearly well over 100hp / liter regardless of how you calculate. It's a race motor with many non factory parts, but it makes it easily.

    Leave a comment:


  • jimmy p.
    replied
    Originally posted by stevesingo View Post

    FWIW, the Evo 2 engine comes the closest to 100bhp/lt DIN at 220hp from 2302cc. I'm pretty sure just a change of EMS to an A/N system would yield 100bhp/lt. On a pre '89 engine probably not as the intake cam is only 248deg.
    I agree w/ this 100%.
    A good Alpha N intake setup on a genuine Evo 2 engine, w/ no cat exhaust, free flow muffler and a good dyno tune probably gets there pretty easy.

    Leave a comment:


  • stevesingo
    replied
    Sound's like you are having fun.

    Dyno losses are not a fixed % of a measured power. The greatest factor is road speed as the tyre roller interface is a greater consumer of power than the g.box, prop shaft, diff, driveshafts and their associated support bearings. I trust you are using the same gear, diff ratio and tyres for all E34 tests, and the tie down is the same. In such a case, expressing the loss as a % is not so wide of the mark. But, a different car will have a different loss at a given road speed and more so at a different road speed.

    But, it is not stock.

    -Intake and exhaust custom grind profile based on the cyl head flow I have.( I work with grinder and I love the freedom of making any custom profile I want to try )
    -long tube headers.
    -I custom 3D printed velocity stacks.
    -Hi flow exhaust system (S85 Catalyst converters but placed way behind the trans to reduced back pressure)
    -Haltech Engine management. coil-on-plug
    -Large plastic intake box, same as S14 CF.

    If we are talking external bolt ons, then a header and intake lengths tuned for peak power will help some, but probably kill torque somewhere else in the rev range.

    FWIW, the Evo 2 engine comes the closest to 100bhp/lt DIN at 220hp from 2302cc. I'm pretty sure just a change of EMS to an A/N system would yield 100bhp/lt. On a pre '89 engine probably not as the intake cam is only 248deg.

    What is the cam specs on the S38 engines?

    Leave a comment:


  • nilsp
    replied
    Anri,

    very interesting reading this stuff.. looking forward to more news

    Regards,,
    NilsP

    Leave a comment:


  • First E30 M3
    replied
    Hi,

    I forgot to mentioned that at 294rwhp with the sequential set up I maxed out the Lucas S38-B38 3.8 280cc Injectors at 3 Bar at 6600rpm, engine is making power up to about ~7250

    At present I updated the injectors with 4 pin hole at 360CC at 3 Bar and they operate at ~72-75%. If add another 5rwhp to keep 300 on hot passes then I should be in perhaps 80-85%.

    We shall see next week.

    Regards,
    Anri

    Leave a comment:


  • First E30 M3
    replied
    Originally posted by JimK View Post
    Hi Anri

    Have you added a knock sensor with the Haltech installation?
    Hi Jim,

    Not on the current stock engine I am working on to make the maximum HP from the bottom end, head ports, itb do offer. Also on pump 91 piss California gas I can do so much. The std 3.5 cr ratio is 9:8 so we reach max power way before knock.

    I have special project coming which is a Must to have knock control.


    Regards,
    Anri

    Leave a comment:


  • JimK
    replied
    Hi Anri

    Have you added a knock sensor with the Haltech installation?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave @nz
    replied
    Hi Anri,
    You made a nice job of installing the Heltech on the M5, sounds very interesting what coils did you use and any other useful details thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Crank
    replied
    Please keep us updated.

    Leave a comment:


  • First E30 M3
    replied
    Originally posted by RAD2LTR View Post
    I'd guess with a modified head

    Hi Will,

    Not sure if you read my goal. I have never ever modified the cylinder head its all stock.

    Goal is min 100hp per liter, possibly 103hp per litre and this will be due to 0.7CR more.

    Will shall see, may be 250hp crank.

    Leave a comment:


  • RAD2LTR
    replied
    I don't see why a 2.3L couldn't make 100 hp/ liter. When I go through mine, that will be my goal. I have an Evo3 and and Evo 2 intake cam, as well as a possible motorsports cam (I got it dirt cheap and couldn't pass it up. I don't have any specs on it however.) The biggest restriction seems to be the AFM, and the small cams. I'd guess with a modified head, some cams, and the Alpha N setup, it would be pretty easy to see 230hp at the crank.

    Will

    Leave a comment:


  • First E30 M3
    replied
    Originally posted by evommm View Post
    Please keep me posted I love the idea
    Mike

    Hi Mike,

    Thanks for the positive support. I was not really sure if people would even be interest.

    I am absolute confident and don't want to sound too much but I am sure 240hp SAE is absolute possible.

    I am posting a link from the dyno on the S38 B35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiSsXF2-MVA At present I am changing 2 parts and will see if I can do hot passes at 300RWHP.

    This is my track toy M6 with 3.5 when tuned it on OEM 1.3 Motronic. This engine never wanted to rev ever :( throttle response was absolute shit :( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7nLYTqrtg8

    This is after complete Haltech full upgrade I did. Throttle response from the Haltech and the tune was absolute day and night....I also re-timed the engine and added to the package different velocity stacks this all together made the engine dynamics like its not same engine....My engine has 260k miles on the bottom end stock pistons new rings, and cyl head valve job to ensure my 1% leak down at TDC tested on cold engine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5S6tIOoNGU

    I reached the limit of the 3.5 3535cc it was making 305rhwp and after very big project with Haltech, re-timmed it, velocity stacks this together brought me about 6rwhp so I ended with 103.2hp per litre.

    After the stacks and re-timed it the power curve stretched even further, before it will pull hard to 7200rpm and right after it will fall on its nose...Now the pick power is reached at the same rpm but it keeps it up to 7800rpm and even 7900rpm but with the stock 130grams wrist pins and boat anchor OEM cast pistons, and 675grams oem rods is not a clever idea but for the test its not a problem.

    I will post a Dyno after I complete the S38-B35-S14 in a week or two I am going back to see if I can make 300 wheel on Hot Passes !

    At present on a Cold Pass it makes 300rwhp but the the 3rd pass the power drops down to 294rwhp and stays there as a stone.

    Fingers crossed will keep an update.

    Regards,
    Anri.


    Leave a comment:

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