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  • S14 rebuild 2022

    It's 350am I am self isolating. So I've found the time to create a post on my s14 rebuild and the rabbit hole it has become.

    Spun a bearing on my s14 in September last year.
    finally opened it up after Xmas to find the cause was most likely oil starvation = failed oil pump. Damage is minimal but the obsession is maximum.
    So one thing has led to another and now I'm planning a 2.5 Stroker Kit rebuild with the bells and whistles.
    it's originally a 2.3 late model 215hp engine with 156k miles. Previously rebuilt in 2014 by a workshop I won't name. Poor workmanship is all I can say.
    Car has had a nut and bolt restoration using every new part where possible. Recycling only parts that are NLA. Uprating everything possible along the way
    (ENGINE/RUNNING GEARS /INTERIOR NOT INCLUDED)

    Ultimately it's a street car I intend cherish forever and hand down one day to a loved one. So budget has not played a part in this parts list. Moreover reliability/sound/preventative measure/ usable power has taken priority.
    So far here is my parts list.

    Schrick Cams 284 276
    Oem 2.5L Evo3 Crankshaft
    94.5mm JE Pistons
    Arrow connecting Rods
    Compression Ratio 11.5.1
    Heavy Duty pins - Yes
    Dome Coating - Yes
    Skirt Coating - Yes

    VAC Coated rod Bearings
    VAC Coated main Bearings
    VAC Oil pump upgrade/fix kit
    VAC S14 Megasump with Baffle
    Paper oil pan gaskets (upper/lower)
    VAC crank Trigger 60-2
    VAC+ Multi Layer Steel Headgasket (thickness to be established)
    VAC Heavy Duty Alternator Bushings
    VAC Throttle position kit


    Sensors-
    E30 M3 S14 wideband o2 sensor
    S14 fast reacting intake sensor
    Fuel pressure sensor
    Fuel temp sensor
    Oil pressure sensor
    Oil temp sensor
    EGT sensor 8mm or 7mm
    ECU - LINK OR SYVECS
    Carbon airbox DTM - Markus
    Weicher 39.5" fake carbon strut brace
    Fuel rail adapter for fuel pressure regulator AN6

    CSF Oil cooler kit + sandwich plate/ black hoses

    Vibra technics engine mount

    oem bmw s14 oil pump
    Oem bmw groupN transmission mount # 23711417246KT
    OEM crank damper
    Schrick Valves
    Schrick Springs
    E36 M3 oem Cam Followers
    New ignition wiring oem
    All round ARP bolts Main/head/flywheel

    I have sent my getrag 265 gearbox and 3.25 diff to Neil at Allgears in Worksop for a full rebuild using all new upgraded internals.

    I did opt for the Turner motorsport shifter rebuild kit with polyurethane bush to fit over the rebuilt gearbox
    I have not altered the diff ratio from 3.25.
    Alongside this exhaustive parts list I am planning to send the cam covers for refinishing.

    I have a full extended alcantara interior on order with Amxperformance since last year. This includes
    alcantara trim dash
    glove
    Console
    Footwell Speaker covers
    recaro sr3 heated seats
    door cards front and rear
    mtech2 370mm steering wheel alcantara

    I am in the process or procuring air conditioning parts for retrofit using a more modern system but implementing the oem heater matrix. (This part has me stuck. Will update as It progresses)

    This has consumed me to say the very least.

    I am not an engineer and have a very basic understanding of s14. I have the help of good friends and the posts on this forum.
    I'm sure I've missed a load of things out but if anyone has 2pence to throw at it please feel free.. I'm still learning and would appreciate any advice from respected peers on this forum.

  • #2
    If you're going to do a standalone ECU you'll want to add the S38B38 cam sensor setup to your list.

    Comment


    • #3
      Quite an extensive and impressive bill of materials for your rebuild there! A couple of questions. What octane fuel are you targeting to run in the engine? at 11.5:1 compression, it could be quite tricky to tune it to run on pump premium without taking timing away in order to avoid detonation. You specify Schrick valves and springs but don't say which ones. There are two varieties, single groove (race) and triple groove (street). I presume the latter as the single groove race setup also requires shim under bucket lash caps and you didn't enumerate any of that. My findings with the Schrick street springs for the triple groove setup are, well, a bit unimpressive when it comes to spring pressure (which is their main role in life...). My testing found them to be weaker than BMW Motorsport EVO III springs. What does that mean in real life? It will be easier for your valves to 'float' at higher RPM's with less spring pressure and make it more likely that the valves would come in contact with the pistons and bend slightly. BMW Motorsport EVO III springs are generally good for 8200 RPM's before they float. I'm going to guess that the Schrick street springs would float around 8000 RPM's. Not a huge difference, but a negative none the less. I recommend using BMW Motorsport EVO III springs instead of Schrick street springs. The Motorsport springs may even be cheaper while also giving you another couple of hundred RPM's of headroom for those spirited downshifts... If you can find a set of Dietrich / Eibach race valve springs, they are incredible, but, not generally available. I'm also not a fan of Multi-layer head gaskets on an S14. Tried them a few times and had issues with them leaking more often than not. I followed their install procedure to the "T" as well. So, unless you absolutely have to use MLS gasket to adjust your compression ratio, say if your head is below spec, I'd stick with a BMW factory head gasket. I'd avoid OEM and aftermarket head gaskets as well too. I also don't see the need for aftermarket rod or main bolts or head studs especially for a non-race engine. BMW's hardware is quite robust and even for the 9600 RPM Gr-A engines I've seen, they all had stock factory hardware in them. That's good enough for me.
      Ron ///Man

      • '91 Gr-A Former CiBiEmme / Ravaglia - Sold
      • '90 M3 Faux EVOII Alpineweiss 36K Orig Owner - The Queen
      • '91 M3 Faux EVO III Brilliantrot Euro Driveline - The Rocket
      • '91 M3 Faux Gr-A Club Racer DM - The Alter EGO
      • '89 M3 M3T / ITR Club Racer
      • '94 Spec E36 - Eh....
      • '09 M3 - Tarmac Terrorist
      • '04 330Xi Sport 6 Speed - Snowmobile
      • '07 530 Xi - Highway Star
      • http://www.imwcarparts.com/e30-m3-parts.htm


      Comment


      • #4
        A few thoughts:

        Do some research on the MLS head gasket you are proposing. They require "perfect" surfacing of the block/head surfaces or they are almost certain to leak. I'm not saying don't use one...they have their advantages...but read some accounts on the 'net so you can make an educated decision. Building a new high dollar engine then promptly having a head gasket leak would be really bad.

        The build you are proposing is almost identical to my first build. I don't know what area you are in, but you are going to need/want fairly good gas to have a safety margin for detonation. You will be able to tune it to run on 91 octane, but to get the most out of it you are going to want better gas. With that build I used to run a 50/50 mix of 91/104 octane. Again, not 100% necessary, but you cannot hear high-RPM detonation in the S14....so unless you want to add knock sensors it is something to be aware of. The build you are proposing WILL detonate on 91 octane if the tune is aggressive at all.

        It is very difficult to build a long-term leak free S14 using the OEM (crappy, TBH) paper gaskets. Other than the head and valve cover gaskets, I would omit the others and use some form of anaerobic sealer. I like Permatex 518 but there are many other brands. If used properly, these products are superior to paper gaskets and unlikely to develop leaks over time. The S14 is notorious for leaking.

        For the lower oil pan, I used the VAC unit for a while and found the design to be marginal. Difficult to remove/install and prone to leak. If you have the budget the pans produced by Conrad Timms (https://www.facebook.com/pg/M3-Motor...7693028/posts/) are vastly superior and are basically identical copies of the BMW Motorsport pans. In case you are not aware, neither of the pans discussed here will allow use of the stock A/C compressor in the standard location.

        Some of the parts you mention aren't familiar to me...like the "S14 fast reacting intake sensor"...and I didn't know you could use E36M3 cam followers.

        If you are running a Getrag 265 with the stock ratios, you will probably be happier with a different final drive ratio than 3.25. I have 4.45 and consider it about perfect for a street/track car.

        I think a "fuel temp sensor" is way, way over the top....but I guess it won't hurt anything.




        ****Edit...I just saw Ron's post so some of what I said is redundant. I will just add that everything he said is 100% accurate.*****
        Last edited by Ironhead; 01-27-2022, 02:52 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          If the tuner is competent, 11.5:1 can be tuned with 91oct to run well.

          I am running 12.5:1 with big BMW MS cams, and run 93oct on my 2.7l. The S14 is not knock limited, the power falls off before knock is induced. I do have active knock protection on my engine.

          T

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ron ///Man View Post
            Quite an extensive and impressive bill of materials for your rebuild there! A couple of questions.

            What octane fuel are you targeting to run in the engine?

            We have 99ron Shell Vpower Fuel

            at 11.5:1 compression, it could be quite tricky to tune it to run on pump premium without taking timing away in order to avoid detonation.

            which compression ratio would you recommend for 99ron fuel.

            I do intend to use a knock sensor also.

            You specify Schrick valves and springs but don't say which ones. There are two varieties, single groove (race) and triple groove (street). I presume the latter as the single groove race setup also requires shim under bucket lash caps and you didn't enumerate any of that.

            yes that's correct shcrick street valves and springs.


            My findings with the Schrick street springs for the triple groove setup are, well, a bit unimpressive when it comes to spring pressure (which is their main role in life...). My testing found them to be weaker than BMW Motorsport EVO III springs. What does that mean in real life? It will be easier for your valves to 'float' at higher RPM's with less spring pressure and make it more likely that the valves would come in contact with the pistons and bend slightly. BMW Motorsport EVO III springs are generally good for 8200 RPM's before they float. I'm going to guess that the Schrick street springs would float around 8000 RPM's. Not a huge difference, but a negative none the less. I recommend using BMW Motorsport EVO III springs instead of Schrick street springs. The Motorsport springs may even be cheaper while also giving you another couple of hundred RPM's of headroom for those spirited downshifts... If you can find a set of Dietrich / Eibach race valve springs, they are incredible, but, not generally available.

            I was recommended the schrick street springs by Will at Geoff steel racing (u.k) I will modify the parts list for Dietrich/eibach race valve springs or ///M evo3 springs as backup

            I'm also not a fan of Multi-layer head gaskets on an S14. Tried them a few times and had issues with them leaking more often than not. I followed their install procedure to the "T" as well. So, unless you absolutely have to use MLS gasket to adjust your compression ratio, say if your head is below spec, I'd stick with a BMW factory head gasket. I'd avoid OEM and aftermarket head gaskets as well too.

            NOTED: We are discussing Cometic Head gasket/ bmw factory head gasket. This we cannot order until the rest of parts arrive etc.

            I also don't see the need for aftermarket rod or main bolts or head studs especially for a non-race engine. BMW's hardware is quite robust and even for the 9600 RPM Gr-A engines I've seen, they all had stock factory hardware in them. That's good enough for me

            I think I'm going overkill on this whole build and respect your advice. I have pm'd you. I look forward to your response

            .
            Hi Ron and thanks for chiming in. There's alot of valuable advice and I have highlighted my responses in the above sections. I am very grateful for the time you've taken to respond. thank you

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by HANDBLT View Post
              If the tuner is competent, 11.5:1 can be tuned with 91oct to run well.

              I am running 12.5:1 with big BMW MS cams, and run 93oct on my 2.7l. The S14 is not knock limited, the power falls off before knock is induced. I do have active knock protection on my engine.

              T
              We have 99oct at the pump here in the u.k now with e10 fuel also
              I believe the tuner is quite fluent with syvecs/link ecu that's why I must choose that route. If I must adjust the compression ratio to suit 99oct then it's not too late do so.
              I do intend to use knock sensor also

              I appreciate your valuable advice.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ironhead View Post
                A few thoughts:

                Do some research on the MLS head gasket you are proposing. They require "perfect" surfacing of the block/head surfaces or they are almost certain to leak. I'm not saying don't use one...they have their advantages...but read some accounts on the 'net so you can make an educated decision. Building a new high dollar engine then promptly having a head gasket leak would be really bad.

                Noted. As Ron also mentioned. I have now modified my list and looking at the bmw or cometic head gasket.​​


                The build you are proposing is almost identical to my first build. I don't know what area you are in, but you are going to need/want fairly good gas to have a safety margin for detonation. You will be able to tune it to run on 91 octane, but to get the most out of it you are going to want better gas. With that build I used to run a 50/50 mix of 91/104 octane. Again, not 100% necessary, but you cannot hear high-RPM detonation in the S14....so unless you want to add knock sensors it is something to be aware of. The build you are proposing WILL detonate on 91 octane if the tune is aggressive at all.

                I am based in the uk and have 99oct at the pump which is all I intend to use. Knock sensors are a must for me.

                It is very difficult to build a long-term leak free S14 using the OEM (crappy, TBH) paper gaskets. Other than the head and valve cover gaskets, I would omit the others and use some form of anaerobic sealer. I like Permatex 518 but there are many other brands. If used properly, these products are superior to paper gaskets and unlikely to develop leaks over time. The S14 is notorious for leaking.

                INITIALLY I THOUGHT OF USING THE PAPER GASKETS AVAILABLE FROM TURNER MOTORSPORT WITH GREY LOCTITE.
                THE PLAN KEPT EVOLVING UNTIL I CHOSE THE MLS.
                I HAVE NO EXPERIENCE WITH ANY OF THE MENTIONED PARTS AND WILL OMIT THEM FROM THE LIST SUBJECT TO FURTHER READING


                For the lower oil pan, I used the VAC unit for a while and found the design to be marginal. Difficult to remove/install and prone to leak. If you have the budget the pans produced by Conrad Timms (https://www.facebook.com/pg/M3-Motor...7693028/posts/) are vastly superior and are basically identical copies of the BMW Motorsport pans. In case you are not aware, neither of the pans discussed here will allow use of the stock A/C compressor in the standard location.

                I've searched for hours for info regarding the baffled sump pan and many post mentioned a version by John johnson germany. I could not find the part nor John johnson.
                Vac being the trusted brand I opted for the best wet sump they offer. (According to them)

                That's a very important point RE:ac compressor positioning.
                I think we would have to fabricate a bracket to secure the compressor elsewhere. I would not want to drill any new holes into the chassis/engine bay. I must investigate this further once I have the compressor in hand.
                I have a company fabricating all new hoses so I am able to move this around.


                Some of the parts you mention aren't familiar to me...like the "S14 fast reacting intake sensor"...and I didn't know you could use E36M3 cam followers.

                the fast reacting intake sensor is something my tuner has asked for. I am not familiar with it either.
                I have been advised that the e36 cam followers are stronger than the original s14 version and a better option than the schrick version which are lighter and designed to be replaced sooner.

                If you are running a Getrag 265 with the stock ratios, you will probably be happier with a different final drive ratio than 3.25. I have 4.45 and consider it about perfect for a street/track car.


                Its not too late for me to change the ratio. We haven't ordered a single part yet.
                how much top end power would I lose by using higher ratio diff.
                in all honesty I don't think ill be top ending this car to know the difference. So using a higher ratio might just be better for my intended use.



                I think a "fuel temp sensor" is way, way over the top....but I guess it won't hurt anything.

                I have a blackbelt in wasting money and time.


                ****Edit...I just saw Ron's post so some of what I said is redundant. I will just add that everything he said is 100% accurate.*****
                still alot of valuable advice
                I appreciate the time you've taken to respond to my post. I have read many of yours and Ron's response to questions and I think alot of the build spec has taken inspiration from your posts on this forum.
                I do respect however with time things improve. And research is better calculated with experience. I hope to learn from your experience and that of other respected members

                Thank you again

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 1990m3 View Post
                  If you're going to do a standalone ECU you'll want to add the S38B38 cam sensor setup to your list.
                  Noted will talk to engine shop and do some more homework.

                  Thank you

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mpowermo View Post

                    still alot of valuable advice
                    I appreciate the time you've taken to respond to my post. I have read many of yours and Ron's response to questions and I think alot of the build spec has taken inspiration from your posts on this forum.
                    I do respect however with time things improve. And research is better calculated with experience. I hope to learn from your experience and that of other respected members

                    Thank you again
                    The Facebook link I included is for Conrad Timms, and he currently has some of his oil pans for sale. If you already bought the VAC one probably not worth it, but Timms' pan really is far superior to the VAC design.

                    You're welcome.

                    Comment


                    • Mpowermo
                      Mpowermo commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I have not purchased anything yet as I feel research is still not concluded.
                      I have contacted timms on Facebook using the link you provided and am awaiting a response. I belive they are in New Zealand so there may be a time difference.

                      Many thanks

                  • #11
                    Lots of good tips you got already.

                    Just my thoughts;
                    Diff; 3,25.. assume you have a euro dogleg gearbox since that diff ratio. A 3,46 or 3,64 is a nice upgrade.
                    E36 cam followers is probably a misunderstanding over the chain tensioner? Which often is beiing used, but also discussed. Personally I use all the stock parts, also on a motorsport s14.
                    The factor with fuel and knock is not to be under estimated, afaik the us and euro octane numbers are not equivalent.?

                    Parts from vac is not necessarily «gold»

                    Use stock headgasket, head bolts etc, Arp for rods is a option, but stock is fine!

                    Cam sensor only needed of want sequential injection.

                    I have used link g4+ a lot and happy with that.

                    Good luck with build

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by Mpowermo View Post

                      We have 99oct at the pump here in the u.k now with e10 fuel also
                      I believe the tuner is quite fluent with syvecs/link ecu that's why I must choose that route. If I must adjust the compression ratio to suit 99oct then it's not too late do so.
                      I do intend to use knock sensor also

                      I appreciate your valuable advice.
                      I think you mean 99ron and not 99oct? I think the 99ron in Europe is the same as our 93oct

                      "An old one but could some one give me the difinitive octane grading from the USA gas to our Fuel please , i believe the fuel grade for custom tuning purposes in the usa are :-

                      87 octane
                      89
                      91
                      92
                      93


                      what are the UK equivalent to these ??


                      ANSWER IS >

                      UK std unleaded "95"octane = is what they call 90/91 octane in the USA

                      UK "super" "97/99"octane = is what they call 92 /93 octane in the USA"

                      T

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        This seems a little short on time between rod bearing replacement? 20hrs is a little over three track weekends for me?

                        T

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Hi Handblt,
                          In the US we use (R + M)/2 for octane, which is two methods averaged, Research and Motor. Motor is a more severe method so the number is typically about 10 lower than Research . So our Research octane number is what about 100 octane used to be and that same fuel would measure using (R + M)/2 about 95. The highest we can get on the west coast is 91.

                          I reaiise that 30 hours is not much time, but that would be much safer than throwing a rod. And many times the rod takes the block with it, unfortunately. There are three types of lubrication, thick film, thin film, and metal to metal contact. They are as the words imply, thick film is no metal to metal contact, with only oil between the two surfaces carrying the load, thin film is when there is some metal to metal contact, but only the asperities touching and not for long with the oil still carrying much of the load, and metal to metal is when there is no oil between the surfaces to carry the load. There is still oil present but the asperities are now welding to each other, and very quickly at, say 7000 rpm, and the welding becomes dominate, with bearing failure soon to occur, like in a few seconds at racing speeds. Typically when the silver colored layer has gone away the typical 'rod knock' sound is present. And sometimes the sound of a rod knock is covered with detonation if that is present so it's over quickly. The metal to metal contact also makes the temperature higher, and there is no oil to conduct and remove most of that heat, which makes the process that much faster.

                          Bearings have several layers of metal. There is a layer of silver colored bearing material to take the load, and when the bearing load is exceeded and the silver colored layer is worn out there is a much thicker layer of usually copper below the silver colored layer, that under many conditions will 'save' the crank journal' when the knock is present which provides some time to shut it down. But not when the racing is going on. If you were to measure bearing geometry you would find that when the silver colored metal is gone so is good bearing geometry, with a tapered oil film to both carry the load and cool the bearing. Bearing clearance is this measure, and you use Plastigage to measure it when the engine is assembled. It is typically about 0.002 to 0.003 inches, or two to three thousanths of an inch. And bearing design also dictates which viscosity of oil should be used so bearing side oil leakage is proper. Too thin an oil thickness will lead to thin film conditions, and quickly.

                          I have gone on here so you may get some insight into bearing design.
                          Larry

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Originally posted by nsubre View Post
                            Hi Handblt,
                            In the US we use (R + M)/2 for octane, which is two methods averaged, Research and Motor. Motor is a more severe method so the number is typically about 10 lower than Research . So our Research octane number is what about 100 octane used to be and that same fuel would measure using (R + M)/2 about 95. The highest we can get on the west coast is 91.

                            I reaiise that 30 hours is not much time, but that would be much safer than throwing a rod. And many times the rod takes the block with it, unfortunately. There are three types of lubrication, thick film, thin film, and metal to metal contact. They are as the words imply, thick film is no metal to metal contact, with only oil between the two surfaces carrying the load, thin film is when there is some metal to metal contact, but only the asperities touching and not for long with the oil still carrying much of the load, and metal to metal is when there is no oil between the surfaces to carry the load. There is still oil present but the asperities are now welding to each other, and very quickly at, say 7000 rpm, and the welding becomes dominate, with bearing failure soon to occur, like in a few seconds at racing speeds. Typically when the silver colored layer has gone away the typical 'rod knock' sound is present. And sometimes the sound of a rod knock is covered with detonation if that is present so it's over quickly. The metal to metal contact also makes the temperature higher, and there is no oil to conduct and remove most of that heat, which makes the process that much faster.

                            Bearings have several layers of metal. There is a layer of silver colored bearing material to take the load, and when the bearing load is exceeded and the silver colored layer is worn out there is a much thicker layer of usually copper below the silver colored layer, that under many conditions will 'save' the crank journal' when the knock is present which provides some time to shut it down. But not when the racing is going on. If you were to measure bearing geometry you would find that when the silver colored metal is gone so is good bearing geometry, with a tapered oil film to both carry the load and cool the bearing. Bearing clearance is this measure, and you use Plastigage to measure it when the engine is assembled. It is typically about 0.002 to 0.003 inches, or two to three thousanths of an inch. And bearing design also dictates which viscosity of oil should be used so bearing side oil leakage is proper. Too thin an oil thickness will lead to thin film conditions, and quickly.

                            I have gone on here so you may get some insight into bearing design.
                            Larry
                            I understand all of that, but with more than 25 years of being in and around the S14 on track, this 'refresh' requirement has never come up with such a low hour?

                            Can some of the engine builders chime in on what you have seen with tear downs for a 'refresh'? I recall John talking about tearing down his first 2.7l (that lived its life on the ring) after something like 20k km, and it was just fine. Needed nothing really.

                            T

                            Comment

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