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Group N vs. Ground Control Questions

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  • Group N vs. Ground Control Questions

    I am currently running H&R Sports and Bilstein sports on all four corners. I want to go with something much stiffer. I am interested in the Ground Control set up or the Group N suspension. First, I am a bit confused on the Group N. There seems to be a Group N coilover set up (I have not been able to find these for sale anywhere) and also Group N springs (ie; Turner J-stock springs). Anyways, was wondering which of these suspension systems will be best for my needs. I am considering the fact that the Turner J-stock suspension (shocks and springs) is a few hundred cheaper than the Ground Control.

    BTW: What is the spring rate of the Ireland Engineering stage 3 springs? I am also considering this as an alternative to the Turner springs (ie; would the turner J-stock shocks work with these?).

    Thanks,
    Chris

  • #2
    How much is it to get custom valved shocks from Turner (I assume it is about the $600 it costs for the J-stock)? This may be a good way to go with the GC springs.

    Does anyone have experience with the Turner full J-stock set up (or Ireland Engineering stage 3)? This looks like an enticing alternative to the Ground Control coilovers.

    Thanks,
    Chris
    Last edited by Chris in SJ; 05-28-2003, 05:44 PM.

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    • #3
      I have the full GC setup (springs, koni's, ST sway bars with GC links, upper rear mounts)and I do have to say I am really happy with it. Its a little stiff on rough roads, but the improvement is worth it. The install of the springs might be a problem if you dont have access to a shop with a welder and cutting equipment though. That aside, I highly recommend the GC stuff. Great quality and value too.

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      • #4
        What type of driving are you using the car for?
        What are the roads in your area like?
        What is your confort level
        What do you want out of your suspension? Max drop, looks, feel, fastest on the track, perfect for the streets?

        There is no perfect system out there, the key is to find what will work best your situation.

        What you have now is a great street setup, it's a little lower, more sporty, and a lto better on the track, it's also feels like stock on the streets.

        Then up from that is the H&R coil overs, they are a little more sporty then your current setup, not to harsh, and you can adjust the ride hight.

        After that is GC system, but you need to get everything in order to get the best out of it.
        Here you can pick your shock and spring rates, that is a good/bad thing. Rob found out that stock Bilsteins just don't work with linear springs. So you can accaully make the car handle worse! But with GC you can go from butter smooth, to rock solid, by changing the springs, but then you need either adjustable shocks or a few sets of revavled shocks.

        TMS J-Stock is a race setup that is finding it's way to the streets, it's low and stiff. But a matched set so it works really well. Not good for abd roads, or a car that never sees the track.

        IE is a knock off of TMS J-stock.

        BMW Grp N coil overs, these are what they won so many races on!! Spring rates are HIGH! Up to 1300lbs! Not for street use! There are also a lot of options on this system! I would talk to Mitch Herman at Motorsports Imports, he can find the best setup for you. This is also the MOST expensive around $3000.

        I have GC on my car with Koni adj shocks. I run a MUCH lower spring then Rob and have a wonderfull hadelign car! I also have a few spare springs for certain tracks. But usually it's to much work to change them out. On the streets I run 350/450.

        No matter what you do, get the GC Rear Shocks Mounts!!

        Do not click
        At least it's German

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        • #5
          Thanks for the information!

          The main reason I am looking at a new set-up is because I suspect my rear shocks are bad (the back is really soft and makes a loud squeaking noise over large bumps). Anyways, I am very fine with a stiff set up. Roads around here are pretty smooth and I hope to see some track time with the local CCA soon.

          How is the Turner J-stock in terms of drop and stiffness? Is it comparable to a linear GC at 450 front, 650 rear? I am also looking for a very mild drop (ie; like the H&R sports) because I'm not a fan of the slammed look.

          Also, since the IE stage 3 is a knock off of the Turner springs, does that mean the spring rates are the same and I can use the Turner valved Bilsteins?

          Thanks again,
          Chris

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Chris in SJ
            Thanks for the information!

            The main reason I am looking at a new set-up is because I suspect my rear shocks are bad (the back is really soft and makes a loud squeaking noise over large bumps). Anyways, I am very fine with a stiff set up. Roads around here are pretty smooth and I hope to see some track time with the local CCA soon.

            How is the Turner J-stock in terms of drop and stiffness? Is it comparable to a linear GC at 450 front, 650 rear? I am also looking for a very mild drop (ie; like the H&R sports) because I'm not a fan of the slammed look.

            Also, since the IE stage 3 is a knock off of the Turner springs, does that mean the spring rates are the same and I can use the Turner valved Bilsteins?

            Thanks again,
            Chris
            Your clunk is your rear shock mounts!!! That's why I say ge the GC ones.

            J-Stock is STIFF and low, it's a racing setup. It's still a progressive spring rate, so it may be less harsh then the GC linear springs 450/650.

            You should be able to use the TMS shocks on the IE springs.

            Do not click
            At least it's German

            Comment


            • #7
              Actually, I just replaced the rear shock mounts with E46 ci ones. I used to have a clunk, and now I don't anymore. There is, however, a squeaking (squishing?) sound when I go over speed bumps, etc... I have checked the subframe bushings and these are still in good condition. I have reduced the problem to the shocks because the rear end is pretty soft (I can also induce the squeaking noise by just pushing down on the back end).

              I am leaning towards the GC set up right now. On Gustave's site, he mentions that the front shock retainer collars are too big and rub on the spring. He said that it is necessary to buy Koni ones....my question is if I can turn down the OE ones on a lathe (or is there some kind of mounting hole too close to the edge).

              Thanks,
              Chris

              Comment


              • #8
                If you really want adjustability i'd talk to Jay at Ground Control about running dual-stacked coilovers (converting the rear to a true coilovers) and using the triple-indy-adjustable Advanced Design race shocks. Though this is quite possibly the biggest overkill ever, it would give you literally tens of thousands of possible setups, though you'd likely need an onboard data acqusition system and an experienced team of mechanics to dial it in perfectly. haha, just thought i'd throw that in there.. i'm happy on H&R Sports and Bilstein Sports!
                Alex McHenry

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                • #9
                  The Ireland stuff is NOT a Turner Knock Off.

                  It is modeled after the HR ERS set up. Nor the Turner kit is probaably based around this as well. Ireland did not use the Turner set up as a base line. They also recomend the Koni's vs the Bilstiens. They also have a very nice reinforcement package as well as some pretty big bars. I do not want to start a debate on bar thickness. Ultimately you would run the smallest bar possible and tune with springs, shocks, camber, caster, corner weighting and tire preasures.

                  The Ireland kit is very good and less money to boot.

                  Jordan
                  "Never lift"

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                  • #10
                    Thanks to everyone for all your help. I am probably going with the Ground Control coil over set up. The major cost with any of the suspension packages are the custom valved shocks. So what it really boils down to is what spring package I want. For $400, I don't think the Ground Control can be beat (ie; custom rates and adjustability). I am probably going to spend $1500 to get the full set up (spherical strut mounts and rear alum. mounts)....hopefully I can make up some of the cost by selling my H&R set.

                    Thanks Again,
                    Chris

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