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  • #16
    regarding a point harness, how is made sure that ones family jewels will take no damage in a crash?
    Seems difficult enough to put a 6-point harness on such that no harm is done, let alone a 5-point harness.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by hardtailer
      regarding a point harness, how is made sure that ones family jewels will take no damage in a crash?
      Place one nut on either side of the belt upon strapping in? :p I use a 6 and never gave it much though, now you've got me worried.

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      • #18
        There is a reason Schroth does not include 4 point harnesses under their list of Competition Harnessbelts...

        Christopher
        Christopher

        www.brmmotorsports.com

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        • #19
          Originally posted by LeeVuong
          There must be a reason for 4 point harnesses having been banned from racing 10 or 15 years ago.
          So instead of assumptions, why not find out the reason first? I'm not trying to attack you here, just that I see a lot of information on the different boards and most of it isn't backed up by facts. It's always best to get the full story out there without opinions becoming the facts.

          I'm not saying that a 4 point is as safe as a 5 or 6 point...

          I am also not saying a 4 point will stop you from submarining (is that a word? ) in an accident, but it will perform like a 3 point..which is also prone to submarine action in a crash. My reponse was to your claim of severing the driver in half, simply won't be any different then a stock 3 point, regardless of it tightening on your pelvis, you can still slide out from under the belts with enough force. This is why automakers have been putting in knee bars to catch you in a crash from going under the dash. (like you find in your E30)
          Chris
          90 Corrado/91 M3/01 M5

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          • #20
            Hi Chris.

            All your questions have ben answered in this thread.

            A 3 point belt will offer way more restraint than a 4-point belt just because on a 3-point belt, the torso acts like a "live" tensioner. The bigger the impact, the more tension the upper body will pull the shoulder belt which will pull the lap belt. As was also said before, there is NO WAY anybody would be strong enough to pull the lap belt of a 4-point system with thew same power of a 100lbs torso stopped at, say, 100 Km/h.

            Just for the sake of an exemple, when you tighten your lap belt, how much tension do you apply? 40, 60lbs? This nothing. And certainly never as strong as what a 3-point system can pull.

            How much more proof, exemple is needed?
            Last edited by LeeVuong; 07-23-2006, 07:27 AM.


            [email protected]

            1969 2002 racecar
            1989 M3 racecar
            e39 Touring

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            • #21
              Originally posted by cramer
              This is why automakers have been putting in knee bars to catch you in a crash from going under the dash. (like you find in your E30)
              I am sorry but that's not the reason. The reason for that is the US Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard that requires a maximum loading on the knees not to be exceeded in case of a crash in which the occupants are NOT buckled up.
              Same goes for the so-called Full Size Airbags as opposed to euro-sized airbags.
              The full size ones only offer an advantage when the driver isnt wearing his safety belt.
              US FMVSS explicitly states standards for the non-buckled up driver as they apparently are aware of how few drivers actually buckle up in the US.
              European standards/laws always consider the driver wearing his safety belt.
              It's not a european standard as you can easily recognize by the fact that only the US E30's had the knee bolsters.

              I have no proof of it, although you could probably find it somewhere on the internet. It's only what a BMW crash/safety expert once mentioned in a presentation during a visit when I was at university.
              Last edited by hardtailer; 07-23-2006, 09:25 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by LeeVuong
                I believe that those whon have had 4 points belts must have experienced the uncomfortable situation when after a short driving period the lap belt ends up as high as the driver's belly. Anything above the pelvis bones is dangerous.

                As was stated, what is great with a 3-point restraint system is that the bigger the impact, the more pressure the torso applies on the shoulder belt, pulling even more on the lap belt. A tension that nobody is strong enough to apply by pulling Schroth lap belt buckle.
                can only second that. In my boy racer time we all installed 4 point belts as it was soo cool to look like a pro. The german ADAC carclub (who does a lot of crash testing and is feared by the manufactureres) showed a crash test with a 4point belt. The dummy was SHOOTING under the hip belt like pulled by a giant.
                I removed my 4 points next day.....

                (but all applies to stock seats, might be a little bit better with bucket seats. But don't want to be the one who finds out not)


                Goodbye M3, you served me well.

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                • #23
                  Some real facts for you all

                  There are a lot of myths about what happens in an accident. There are also many people who think they know everything there is to know about safety devices.

                  Just to clear some stuff up. The Schroth ASM 4 point belt is not unsafe; frankly it is 1000x better then the 18+ yearold belt in your M3's. Think about the extreme temperatures sunlight and sliding in and out of the inertia reel plus how many times it has been closed in the door. Chances are the stock 3-point belt would not sustain much more than a 30mph impact without tearing or stretching far more than it should.

                  Im sure many of you have read the information available at Schrothracing.com and for those who havenít there is a nice video you can watch.



                  Just a few things to take note of:

                  1.All of the sled test are done with a stock VW golf seat.

                  2.The test is done at 30mph, which equates to a 28g impact.

                  3.With a 3-point belt notice the excessive movement and force of the body both on the initial impact and the recoil. And how far the body moves out of the seat.

                  4. Take note of the force the head hits the headrest. (NO MATTER WHAT HARNESS OR BELT YOU ARE USING MAKE SURE YOUR HEAD REST IS PROPERLY ADJUSTED IT WILL SAVE YOUR NECK LITERALY)

                  5. Now the sled test with the Schroth belt, notice the significantly less violent deceleration and recoil on the body.

                  6. The sled test shows that there is no more submarining with a Schroth 4point belt than the factory 3 point.

                  7. Also during most collisions it is very common that there is a secondary impact ie. Front quarter of the car hits a barrier and bounces across the road and hits the other barrier. Chances are the stock 3 point belt will do very little to keep you in the seat on the secondary impact. Where the 4 point will help keep your body in the seat.

                  8. Another issue that I am sure will come up with all of the lurking skeptics is the issue of a 4 point belt in a roll over. Generally in a rollover the body is flung around with the car at about 18g's people claim they can move out of the way of a roof. Last time I checked most people have a hard enough time staying in the seat at 1 lateral g on the track. Most injuries in a roll over come from the head hitting the A or B pillar. NOT from the roof collapsing. The other time is when the car is on its roof and the driver releases the harness without properly supporting the body consequently dropping about 150-200lb of body mass on the head and neck, i.e. (Joey Hand at Mid-Ohio, I am sure you have seen the video of that one!!)

                  Now there is so much info about safety devices available and I could sit here and type for hours but I would much rather talk to the skeptics over the phone. So if you have any questions please email me [email protected] or call us and we will help you out.

                  As for Lee Vuong, just so you guys know he values his life at a mere $865. Just check out his complaint about the mandating of the Hans device for bmwcca club racing (a device that has been proven over and over again)Hans Mandated for Club Racing BTW you can use a Hans with an open face helmet Lee. Arenít you building a M3? $$$$ :rolleyes:

                  Its nice knowing experts like Lee are there letting people know whatís up with safety systems :rolleyes: (did you catch my sarcasm)

                  I use a 4 point in my e36 on the track, Joe Marko the owner of HMS and foremost expert on racing safety uses a 4 point in his mini.
                  Trust me it work's and is NOT UNSAFE!!

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                  • #24
                    Justin, since your post started, I was 100% sure you were working for HMS as your post sounds just like an informercial. Then you confirmed it. Your comments are obviously biased as you have to sell those products. Please, be free to be your own test/promo guinea pig. How can we blame you for defending such a lethal product, even banned by many BMWCCA chapters? You have to sell those parts. And by the way, I have owned two sets of those Rallye Schroth harnesses, 15 years ago. I kept them no longer than a month. Too dangerous. I would never advise a friend to buy them, and our chapters bans them too.

                    Yes I am bitching against the HANS in CR, which BTW your employer has pushed to Club Racing as safety advisor, and then sells as owner of HMS. Are we talking about conflicy of interest here? Is it the same safety advisor who is saying that a 3 year old SFI 5-point harness is less safe than a 20 year 3-point belt from an, say, e30? What a joke. But you know why I bitch against the HANS? It is only because it solves a problem that doesn't exist in Club Racing. How many people have suffered from the problems that the HANS is supposed to solve? How many drivers have died or have been injured? If it is safety that CR is about, then let's first start be enforcing drivers' attitude: no more racers talking to each other, trying to fix a situation before meeting the marshall. Let's expell those drivers with red mist or who are deemed dangerous. It is a pity that CR has transfered the burden of responsibilty on the drivers' wallet instead of taking the bull by the horn. But that is only my point of view. And you know what Justin? You do not have to be a dick to express a point of view, especially when you represent a business. And there is no sarcasm there.


                    [email protected]

                    1969 2002 racecar
                    1989 M3 racecar
                    e39 Touring

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Some More Information For You

                      Lee, sorry for the personal attack, but people need to know facts based on scientific test done both in labs and in real world scenarios. You are completely entitled to voice your qualms with the products we sell and voice them here but I just wanted to make people aware of what we have found from our tests and research. I deal with over opinionated racers everyday, who think they know what is best and they have been doing this for 20 years so on and so forth, but honestly there has been some very significant discoveries about racing safety in the last 2 years and the information available 15 years ago has been superseded.

                      The Rallye belts were ban in some chapters due to uneducated people making rules based on bad information. Most of the chapters, such as Patroon who had ban the Rallye belts have lifted the ban after they have received the proper information about the systems. It is understandable that people make mistakes. Just recently the Porsche club told its members that if they have a 5 point harness in their stock seats with the sub strap going around the front of the seat (very unsafe) that the problem of sub-marining would be averted if they used the stock 3 point belt in conjunction with the 5 point harness. Essentially what this did what create a nice V that would catch the neck as the occupant submarined into the foot well, not a pretty picture. As you can see people with bad information can make some very bad decisions.

                      As for the HANS, basically what you said Lee is that Club Racers are impervious to crashing and injury. A Club racer passed away last year and there have been countless incidents due to driver and or mechanical failure through the history of club and pro racing where a Hans would have significantly helped or saved a life. Every racer who is pushing the limits and even those who arenít will eventually find themselves in an incident at some point. And if you havenít seen the sled test video comparison of HANS vs. No HANS I strongly suggest you do. In fact I will post it shortly so everyone can see what the HANS can do and they can decide for themselves.

                      All I can say is that there is a lot of good information out there and also a lot of bad information. So talk to experts who have outfitted tens of thousands of cars and done the proper research. If I had a question about an 2002 I would not hesitate to ask Lee, due to his extensive history with the cars. If I have a question about my M3 I will come here and consult the members of this form. Im just saying if you talk to the right people you will get the best information.

                      I turn away customers everyday who want to use a harnesses in an unsafe application i.e Porsche stock seat. I have been told to educate and make people safe, not make a sale at every opportunity and it is important that the people here know that.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Some real facts for you all

                        Originally posted by JustinC
                        The Schroth ASM 4 point belt is not unsafe; frankly it is 1000x better then the 18+ yearold belt in your M3's.
                        This is a very good point. I still use my OE 3-point at the track. This is a very poor choice I have made, but based on my desire to keep my car as original as possible. After seeing the nice installation of a 5-point harness in conjunction with the OE seats earlier in this post, I will soon be doing the same.

                        [i]I use a 4 point in my e36 on the track, Joe Marko the owner of HMS and foremost expert on racing safety uses a 4 point in his mini.
                        Trust me it work's and is NOT UNSAFE!! [/B]
                        I agree that the Schroth 4-point harness (or similar product) is as safe, if not safer, than an OE 3-point set-up. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. Though, I firmly believe that a proper SFI rated 5 or 6 point harness is the best way to keep yourself safe at the track. I am also in support of the HANS device being required in all forms of organized motorsport. It is a small price to pay to further reduce your chances of injury on the track.

                        Let's all be as safe as possible, so we can share many a at the end of every track event!

                        Christopher
                        Christopher

                        www.brmmotorsports.com

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                        • #27
                          Some good points in the post further above. Still I would always opt for a 6 point harness.

                          Hijacking the thread but regarding the HANS. From the price I read here it seems to me that prices are lower in the US than in Europe. Would you happen to have a link to a shop that offers them? One needs a compatible helmet also, so if that shop can provide those too, that would be nice.

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                          • #28
                            Good points Justin, some sound advice.

                            hardtailer. The price for HANS devices in the US appears to be fixed, almost every retailer is within a few dollars of each other. So you may as well base it on who you would like to do business with. HMS is always a good bet.
                            http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/n...r-hans-device/

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                            • #29
                              ....and smoking isn't dangerous for your health.
                              kind regards
                              Dr. Marlboro

                              I will take into account that they 'might' have improved things since I have seen the crash test (at least 15years ago) but have to agree with hardtailer, 6 point or 3 point.

                              If ageing OEM belts would be a saftey risk, I am sure german TUV or US safety institutions would make us change them after a certain period of time. But it looks like that there are no high numbers of failing belts are reported. On the other hand the 4 point is banned for racing by BMWCCA.....


                              Goodbye M3, you served me well.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                This is an interesting discussion, some good points on all sides.

                                To be fair, the idea of comparing an 18 year old 3 point harness to a (relatively) new 4 point harness amounts to a red herring for our discussion. Ageing belts is an important issue and one that we should each consider, but it highlights the need to inspect and replace our original 3 point belts. It is not an argument to go out and buy a 4 point, nor does it compare a good new 3 point belt to a good new 4 point belt. Nice try though.

                                Picking on a member's history is pretty low. Good to see Lee stood up for himself. We may disagree with his opinion on the HANS device, but again it says nothing about the 4 point harness issue and so it should be kept to its own thread.

                                Let's play fair and improve our understanding of the real issues.
                                Last edited by /christopher; 07-24-2006, 07:30 AM.

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