Still trying to figure out some AN basics

[gereed75]

i am trying to run Maxx AN with closed loop on my newly rebuilt stock S14 with an Innovate LC2 O2 sensor and a stock ICV

I assure you I have spent a lot of time reading Maxx literature and pretty much all of the threads on here regarding AN and double checking the AN wiring integration into the motronic connector/ engine harness

. I can do the basics - go online with the AN module and download maps . I have gotten the thing running with various configurations and various results, none of them very good.

So i am still working really hard to understand some basic wiring and functionality of the AN software and hardware so that I can tune.

Help me first confirm that the lambda control is wired correctly. Based on the two tidbits from the Maxx literature below ( and the Maxx wiring schematic) I have wired the NBsim signal into the black wire on X3-6 that feeds into AN plug at E and jumpered it into the ECU pin 24.

Obviously this wiring provides the NB sim signal To the motronic and the AN and is the signal that the ECU needs to control lambda.

Additionally, the WBlin signal, via X3, is fed to AN F and allows AN to display AFR’s.

Reference From Maxx:

Addendum
If idle valve is not used (some racing setups), wire 33-J can be left open.
If you don’t want to view the signal of the oxygen sensor or no oxygen sensor is in use, the wire 24-E can be left open.

1.1 Narrow-band-signal NBsim
The signal NBsim may be connected to the X3 connector at pin 6 ( AN input E).
The harness connects this signal via the X3 connector to the Alpha N plus and also to the associated mo- tronic side narrowband lambda input.
In this case it is important to remember that the stock narrowband connector on the engine harness (nor- mally connected to your stock lambda sensor) remains disconnected!
In this way, it is possible to retain the stock lambda (0..1V) control without having to use an additional narrowband sensor. If the stock lambda sensor is to be used, then pin 6 of the X3 connector should not be connected.


So far so good, I think, but trying to understand the control functions is where it all goes fuzzy for me (and where the advice in threads seems very inconsistent)

The AN guidance above says the motronic is best left to control lambda, yet the whole idea is that AN provides closed loop feedback. So how does that work?

threads say turn lambda control off (via F10). That allows motronic to solely control lambda, yet AN is generating compensation factors as it Compares read AFR’s to your fuel map for various throttle positions and RPM.

That really confuses me. Is AN actually controlling or just generating compensation factors to guide you on changes to your fuel map? If you are adjusting Fuel delivery via your fuel map, How does that square with what the motronic is trying to do?

Just don’t understand. Can someone help me get it?

[Reelizmpro]

Not all MAXX AN versions are capable of WB closed loop feedback. If yours is, what it's doing is adjusting your fuel map with compensation values to match your target AFR's. Remember that MAXX is a piggy back and only alters the fuel map but the heart is still the motronic DME. Motronic has built in Narrowband closed loop feedback only, which should be disabled if using a Wideband sensor with MAXX.

[gereed75]

Thanks Reel for taking the time to read and respond. But still confused. What you are telling me is the statement below, or parts of the statement, from section 7.7 of the Maxx manual is BS?

Although the Alpha-N unit has its own lambda control, one should use the built in lambda control of the ECU if implemented (e.g. motronic) because the ECU has more engine-parameters available as input for the control.
However, it can be useful during mapping of the engine to use the lambda control of the Alpha-N module. In order to do this, the motronic's lambda control signal must be disconnected).
The lambda control attempts to maintain lambda=1 by generating a correction value.
This correction value is shown at the top of the main window of the Alpha-N control program (see the red arrow). The correction value can be used to indicate in which direction to adjust the fueling.
Good values are achieved when the correction value is within +/- 4.
Note: This number which evaluates the correction value is just an internal used value without a unit. It does not show a mixture.
The lambda control is inactive above 5000rpm. The green LED indicates an active control.
After the mapping, deactivate the lambda control of the Alpha-N module. Reconnect the lambda signal to the motronic.

and when you or the manual say to “deactivate or disable” lambda, is that via the F10 toggle? And then there is the term “disconnect”. That implies connecting or unconnecting a wire. Is that the black between AN E and ECU 24?

And is lambda only the narrow band (.1-.5v) signal, or is it used to describe the wide band (.1-5v) signal function?

Still confused.

[mlytle]

closed loop corrects accross the entire map. it tries to get to the desired AFR using the fuel map first, then adds or subracts fuel if still not there. you have to do logging and analysis to see where it is correcting so you can manually change the map to get the corrections down to +-4.

[Mick]

On both of my cars that are running Maxx I have it set up exactly as mlytle described.

I agree the conflicting information is quite confusing.

[gereed75]

Thanks guys. I think what has really thrown me is the conflicts between what the Maxx instructions seem to say and what most of the instructional threads propose. There is not a clear consensus in the threads but the best I can surmise is this:

1. The two signals put out by the various wide band controllers, NBsim and WBlin are fed into the AN via X3 -6 and X3-3 respectively
2. The NBsim .1-.5 volt signal simulates the lambda signal that would be generated by a narrow band O2 sensor formerly used by the Motronic, but contrary to suggestions in the Maxx instructions, it is best not to feed that signal back to Motronic. So leave the E to 24 jumper not connected. With no lambda signal, I’m not sure whether Motronic even tries to generate a fuel correction signal, but it seems not., thus the term “disabled”.
3. AN then uses the WB signal, and the NBsim signal (I guess) to generate compensation factors to drive fueling to produce the AFR’s chosen in the AFR table for various throttle positions and rpms. Maxx calls this closed loop lambda control, although it might better be described as closed loop wide band control since it controls in the full range of AFR’s, not just 14.7 (lambda)
4. The tuner, after choosing the desired AFR’s in the table, then adjusts fueling using the fuel map, in an effort to minimize the compensation generated by the AN closed loop function. It seems this is best done with the AN closed loop function turned off. Closed loop is turned off by toggling F10, labeled “lambda on/off” in the AN program.
5. Once the process of choosing AFR’s for best performance and adjusting fueling to minimize compensation factors is complete, “lambda control” is toggled back on via F10 and the system is sent on its merry way to produce pleasing performance unencumbered by the nasty AFM.

IS THAT ABOUT IT??? I welcome any of those on the board with more experience or understanding to clarify, correct or flame as appropriate. Just trying to shorten the climb up the learning curve for me or others trying to figure this out.

Some other notes:

The success of this process is all dependent on setting up the program parameters correctly, including TPS values, pin E NBsim function as table correction, pin F as wide band input, and telling AN what the O2 sensor output will be, among others.

AN closed loop control stops generating compensation factors some where in the upper right part of the AFR table, apparently above 4000 RPM or so and AN then drives fueling by values contained on the fuel map in open loop mode.

thanks again to those that responded and hopefully more will respond with corrections and other helpful tidbits and clarifications necessary for us to keep this product viable.

[mlytle]

4/5. I never turn off wbo2 control.
I tune by driving around with logging on. Dump logging file into spreadsheet. Sort by afr map cell, observe corrections in the file and then change fuel for that cell. Extrapolate fuel values for cells not logged. Reload new file to Maxx, go driving again.

I log and analyse regularly.

Compensation does not stop at 4k rpm.

[babarabus]

I can understand your frustration. The best practice is to tune the car, with a passenger and when you get your fuel map good and you have your target AFRs to then turn on the wide band control. Dont tune with the wide band control on. Think of it as a ongoing thing after the tune is done to keep it in check for when parameters change like air temp etc.

Tune with the graph (fuel map) and have your target AFRS in the excel looking page.

As far as NB sim goes, if thats the black wire I left it disconnected at the motronic so it always ran open loop and wasnt getting an input, im 99% sure of that but it was a while ago.

Another tip is dont mess around with the idle control graph to adjust the idle figures, leave it as is. Just ensure the signals are correct from the idle valve which is the percentages move.

[gereed75]

Thanks again for the responses guys. When I have some time I think I will restart this thread over on the General Discussion section in hopes that it attract more responses.

See you there.

[mlytle]

this is the right sub-forum for AN topics, not general discussion. when you open the site and select "new posts" (as all should be doing.....), new posts from all the sub-forums show up.

Keep the AN information in the AN forum.

[mlytle]

I can understand your frustration. The best practice is to tune the car, with a passenger and when you get your fuel map good and you have your target AFRs to then turn on the wide band control. Dont tune with the wide band control on. Think of it as a ongoing thing after the tune is done to keep it in check for when parameters change like air temp etc.

Tune with the graph (fuel map) and have your target AFRS in the excel looking page.

As far as NB sim goes, if thats the black wire I left it disconnected at the motronic so it always ran open loop and wasnt getting an input, im 99% sure of that but it was a while ago.

Another tip is dont mess around with the idle control graph to adjust the idle figures, leave it as is. Just ensure the signals are correct from the idle valve which is the percentages move.

disagree on several items here. there is more than one way to do some of this.

you CAN tune with WBO2 on. I do it all the time. it allows you to change fuel map and see live the compensation change to factor in the fuel change. super easy to tune this way. recommended.

DO mess around with the idle control graph. that is the fuel map for when idle control is on. this should be adjusted when engine is warm. again, with WBO2 ON, adjust the graph(fuel) up or down to minimize the compensation the closed loop WBO2 has to do.

[Mick]

Technically you can tune either way but I much prefer to set the map with WB correction off rather than fighting the Maxx. I get the AFR as close as possible to the target map then when I switch correction back on the compensation is minimal.

I also always had to adjust the idle graph when I had ICV's

[babarabus]

There are probably a few ways of doing it, I would always tune then turn it on.

I found on my car playing with the ICV graph before the tune was done to get good idle figures, would result in non starts on occasions or once you turn it off it would not restart hence suggesting not to mess around with it till the car is somewhat dialled in.

again just my experiences from when I did it 6 months ago, I have never worked with MAXX Alpha N only standalones.

[ColinM]

Yes, I also found this info in the MAXX documentation to be very confusing:

Although the Alpha-N unit has its own lambda control, one should use the built in lambda control of the ECU if implemented (e.g. motronic) because the ECU has more engine-parameters available as input for the control.
However, it can be useful during mapping of the engine to use the lambda control of the Alpha-N module. In order to do this, the motronic's lambda control signal must be disconnected).

I understand that the stock Motronic has many different tables that are used as compensation/correction, and that the engineers did their homework with them and we want to leverage those. I feel that I still don't understand what MAXX is advising.

[mlytle]

suggest all go back to the source and do some reading on s14power.com. in particular this thread.
https://forum.s14power.com/index.php...sed-loop.5631/