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Help needed to tune 292/292+forged pistons

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  • Help needed to tune 292/292+forged pistons

    Hello to everyone,

    I have just registered, and would have a question rightaway, I hope anyone could help me up:

    (i did not know where to put this post, so it is also placed on "forced induction" - while it is not the right subject)

    So, I bought my car already with 292/292 Schrick cams (at angle 102) + Wiseco forged pistons. CR 11,9:1 and the valve clearances and all the parameters that Schrick catalogue indicates are correctly adjusted.
    The car is stock in all other details including the ECU - no chip, no carbon airbox, no Alpha-N.
    The power is 231HP/170,2kW at 7085 rpm and 235,6 Nm at 6645 rpm.

    I have ready by VAC or Turner that the 292/292 combination is not really street friendly, but I got the car already with this configuration. It also says that the usable power is from 6000-8500 rpm, and it is like this actually; my car starts to push really at 5.500/6.000 but tilts at 7.200 rpm having still the factory tilting.
    So it is a very narrow line, and that's my main problem.

    I am aware that there are millions of variatons of mods that could be carried out; my scope is to have a car that I can use on street but track as well. I am sure that if I want to use the 292/292 cams, the rev should be modded up to 8.500 rpm.
    But does it solve itself the problem?

    Sorry to begin with a long mail, have more questions in pocket still, but will post them later.

    What do you suggest, how to proceed?

    Thanks for any info,

    Soma

  • #2
    If the valve springs are up to the job (8500rpm), then just raise the rev limiter.
    Still, these rev's are hardly used on the street, so the ride will be a little rough.
    It's actually all about what you like yourself.

    Comment


    • #3
      292/292 Schricks on Standard chip and AFM???!!!

      Now that's unheard! No wonder it's rough you need AT LEAST a live mapping session and probably a set of injectors.

      I'd either put an Alpha-N w/ closed loop and CF Airbox or remove the cams.

      Comment


      • #4
        Two threads going on here on the same topic. Finding myself replying in two locations...

        I would not remove the cams with a compression ratio already that high. Returning to stock cams would effectively increase compression ratio more, possibly causing detonation (Not really that simple, but for all intents and purposes)

        You do not need closed loop, but most options have it anyways. My opinion is people should not run closed loop unless they are really confident in their wideband sensor / controller and know the pros / cons. I ran into a situation recently where if my system was running in closed loop at WOT, I could have leaned out and blown up my motor - all due to the wideband controller/sensor installation. I have closed loop turned off until I re-do my WBO2 system (It is currently an Innovate LC-1 with Bosch sensor)

        You do not need a Carbon Airbox, but they're nice to have. Fiberglass is cheaper, even cheaper is a tube to replace the AFM that uses the stock filter housing and plenum, then upgrade to the airbox when funds allow.

        Repeat after me: ALPHA-N IS NOT A PRODUCT. Kiko is referring to the Maxx Alpha-N Piggyback fuel controller. Alpha-N is a technology (Throttle Angle vs. RPM) that is used in many different engine management systems. I use Alpha-N for both my ignition and fuel tables in my Megasquirt.

        The Maxx product is probably the most frequently used solution in the E30M3 world, but it gets you fuel control, not ignition too - you would still need a custom chip. Going with a Standalone (Megqsquirt, Motec, Vipec, KMS, Pectel, Autronic, etc, etc) is probably the best, but more complicated and expensive due to the custom wiring. Then, for both, there's tuning.
        sigpic
        Track Car Build | COM Sports Car Club

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Brendan View Post
          Two threads going on here on the same topic. Finding myself replying in two locations...

          I would not remove the cams with a compression ratio already that high. Returning to stock cams would effectively increase compression ratio more, possibly causing detonation (Not really that simple, but for all intents and purposes)

          You do not need closed loop, but most options have it anyways. My opinion is people should not run closed loop unless they are really confident in their wideband sensor / controller and know the pros / cons. I ran into a situation recently where if my system was running in closed loop at WOT, I could have leaned out and blown up my motor - all due to the wideband controller/sensor installation. I have closed loop turned off until I re-do my WBO2 system (It is currently an Innovate LC-1 with Bosch sensor)

          You do not need a Carbon Airbox, but they're nice to have. Fiberglass is cheaper, even cheaper is a tube to replace the AFM that uses the stock filter housing and plenum, then upgrade to the airbox when funds allow.

          Repeat after me: ALPHA-N IS NOT A PRODUCT. Kiko is referring to the Maxx Alpha-N Piggyback fuel controller. Alpha-N is a technology (Throttle Angle vs. RPM) that is used in many different engine management systems. I use Alpha-N for both my ignition and fuel tables in my Megasquirt.

          The Maxx product is probably the most frequently used solution in the E30M3 world, but it gets you fuel control, not ignition too - you would still need a custom chip. Going with a Standalone (Megqsquirt, Motec, Vipec, KMS, Pectel, Autronic, etc, etc) is probably the best, but more complicated and expensive due to the custom wiring. Then, for both, there's tuning.
          Hi guys,

          Hi Brendan,

          Thx, I know that Alpha-N is a system - produced by Maxx in Germany. Instead of the AFM it measures quantity of air, as far as I know.
          I would not like to remove the cams, or in the worst case remove only the exhaust side and change it with a 284, since 292/284 is more friendly than 292/292 as now.
          I am also thinking about a personalized EMS by KMS or other by now.

          I suggest closing down this forum and continue on the "forced induction" where I put it up as well - sorry for the inconvenience.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by somaone73 View Post
            Thx, I know that Alpha-N is a system - produced by Maxx in Germany.
            No. Alpha-N is not a system, it is not a product. It is a method for controlling an engine used by many different manufacturers. Alpha stands for Throttle Angle, N stands for RPM. For example, I run a Megasquirt standalone. I use Alpha-N for fuel control. I use Alpha-N for ignition control.

            http://www.bayareamotorsport.com/alphan.html

            "Maxx Alpha-N" is a product - a piggyback fuel computer sold buy Maxx that uses Alpha-N for fuel control.
            sigpic
            Track Car Build | COM Sports Car Club

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by somaone73 View Post
              Hi guys,

              I would not like to remove the cams, or in the worst case remove only the exhaust side and change it with a 284, since 292/284 is more friendly than 292/292 as now.
              I am also thinking about a personalized EMS by KMS or other by now.

              I suggest closing down this forum and continue on the "forced induction" where I put it up as well - sorry for the inconvenience.
              A couple things - If you have 11.9:1 static compression, downgrading cams would increase your dynamic compression and could cause detonation. And you will still have the same issues, so I would leave them.

              A standalone EMS would be a good idea, there are many, many options that have been discussed here on this forum. They give you the most flexibility because you can have a competent tuner set up fuel and ignition, but they are also the most expensive and complex to implement.

              Forced Induction is the wrong forum - the post should continue here because this has nothing to do with Forced Induction, and the other thread should be closed with a link to this one - maybe a mod can help out.
              sigpic
              Track Car Build | COM Sports Car Club

              Comment


              • #8
                agree .. leave the cams.. sounds like they are installed properly and working well. A unichip would be a good option, or a custom chip with a MAXX A/N which can help you control fuel, or you could go Megasquirt or some other full blown standalone EMS system, depending on your budget.
                Mark Williams
                Dallas, TX

                Nothing says "welcome to the neighborhood" like a search... oh wait... looks like they are all gone! :rastajake:

                sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Have you looked at www.millermotorsportcars.com as they advertise their MAF Kits for the E30 M3 which replaces the AFM plus they supply a chip with a step by step instructions for the conversion? You will still need to get the chip tuned but offers a good starting point.
                  I have no experience with the above company but maybe a good solution to your problem?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Unichip

                    Hi,

                    I am trying to find a company here for the Unichip piggyback.
                    It is installed by leaving the factory ECU, right?
                    Does it come with the change of the factory AFM?

                    Do you think I need other mechanical mods like performance exhaust, larger injectors, etc.? (for sure the valve springs mist be changed.)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Using a piggy-back such as Alpha-N form Maxx or Unichip with stock Motronic form M3 is not a good option. First one does not have igniton control. Second one does have a ignition control, but there is a common problem for all piggibacks.
                      Removing stock air flow - you can tune quite good power but there is a problem - you won't get barometric compensation. The car will run not well when the atmospheric pressure will change, the performance will depends on weather condition and place you drive it.
                      Using a piggy-back like Unichip is also not the best option... Modifying a signal from air flow meter affects not only fuel parameters, it also affects ignition. So it's very hard to tune it.
                      Tuning piggy back systems you have not any influence to acceleration enrichment so you will not get a good throttle respons.
                      The best option is a properly tuned standalone ECU. Good standalone ECU can be cheaper than Alpha-N kit for MAXX, and I'm not talking about DIY systems like Megasquirt, but a real motorsport ECU with CAN support for performance AIM dash logger, miltiple map for different fuels.

                      Best ragards

                      Kuba

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