Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Wideband Controler/Logger Review

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Wideband Controler/Logger Review

    I have been looking for a wideband O2 controller to aid in the tuning of my Miller War Chip. Upon my research it became obvious that logging the AFR would definitely be a help in my tuning. It also became obvious that logging some of the cars other data would be a big help. I decided I wanted to log AFR, RPM, and the signal from the MAF conversion. With this data logged I should be able to drive the car around and then analyze the data in order to make adjustments to the WAR chip.

    Innovate seems to be the big name from what I can tell from my search. It also seemed that those that have had the Innovate products for around 5 years or so we’re very happy. Those that had them for less time were not so much. The LC-1 is a basic wideband controller that can be logged with a separate logger or software. The LM-2 is a stand along logger and will log AFR and with some added accessories could log other items as well. The cost for the LM-2 was around $275 with all the goodies I needed. I was really leaning to getting this unit but the reviews just seemed very unfavorable for the current production stuff.

    So expanding my search I came across a few other products. The SLC PP2 from www.14point7.com is the one that really caught my eye. It has the ability to display the AFR in real time and log RPM. With additional sensors it will also display and log Boost, fluid temperature, intake air temp., fuel pressure, oil pressure, and EGT. It also has two user definable inputs as well as accelerometers. It will output a 0-5v signal for AFR to input into external loggers. And lastly it will simulate a narrow band O2 for feed to the ECU. I purchased this unit from Chris at www.partsforspeed.com for $226 delivered. Chris was a big help and we reviewed a few different products he carries before I settled on the SLC PP2.

    14point7 is a small Canadian company owned and operated by Alan To. This is not a big cooperation. This can be good as well as bad. There is no 24 hour service but when you do get service you get the “guy”. Alan can answer your questions and will stand behind his product. I have had a few questions and my emails were responded to and phone calls returned. Basically it’s been about a 12 to 24 hour turn around for response. Once he is on my problem he will solve it and get back to you. The only real problem was getting the RPM to work. With so many cars and different ways they read RPM I guess one can expect a few glitches.

    The SLC PP2 comes with Winlog software that you can use for additional real time display and logging. There is a dash template that shows the gauges of the sensors you are monitoring and recording. With a laptop hooked to the SLC PP2 you can see all the gauges at once and record multiple runs. There is also a program called Winlogview. With this program you can download the data stored on the SLC PP2 and analyze at your leisure. The only down side to this is that every time you start recording a new log it overwrites the old log. So unless logging with the laptop, you have to download your logs after each drive. I basically log during my drive to and from work. When I get to work I hook the laptop up and download the log. I analyze the data and make changes to the WAR Chip. Upload the new tune file and log things on the way home. Since you have to have the laptop to program the WAR chip is really is no big deal to download the data. The SLC PP2 will log something like 25 times a second. When you are looking at the data it is almost too detailed. The values change so frequently that they are sometimes hard to read. The unit is well built and even with my limited computer skills I was able to get the unit and the laptop to talk and share data.

    The user defined inputs are shared with the accelerometer inputs so if you chose to input you own signal you may have to disable one or both of the accelerometers. I chose to input my MAF signal where the boost signal would be. The 14point7 boost gauge specs show it reads 0-4v which translates to -30 to 43 psi. Knowing the MAF puts a 0-5v output I took a chance that the S14 will never get to full 5 volts from the 4” MAF. So far at WOT I have seen in the low 30’s. If I ever get to 43 I will know it is outputting more than 4 volts and try something else. With the logging of MAF signal I am able to get an idea of load based on the amount of air for a given RPM. This helps figure out where you are in the WAR chip map.

    Overall I am very pleased with the SLC PP2. It does everything I need and I hope to be able to figure out how to upload the log file to Virtual Dyno and see some comparisons.

    I would love to get some dialog going on tuning tips for the Miller WAR chip as well as some ideas on analyzing the data. AFR tuning is one thing but the harder issues are the ignition timing. I am already gathering parts to build a Det Can. If anyone has figured out how to log a knock sensor I would love to hear about that.

    Michael

    P.S. The above review does qualify me for a free sensor from 14point7 but none the less it is still my honest opinion.
    Last edited by ilateapex; 02-14-2012, 07:17 AM.

  • #2
    Cool that does look nifty. I'm rocking an Innovate LC-1 and Maxx but if it dies I'll give the SLC a serious look.

    What does the 0-5V wideband output correlate to? LC-1 is 7.35 - 22.39 AFR for that range.

    -chris
    1988 M3
    2007 Lotus Exige S

    Comment


    • #3
      The default output is 0v = 10 AFR and 5v = 20 AFR. I think it is configurable. I know the simulated narrow band output is configurable.

      Michael

      Comment


      • #4
        Good Review.

        I personally am not a fan of Innovate. I had an LC-1 and had some trouble with it, they are very finicky with wiring and grounding. I have since switched to a NGK Powerdex AFX with an NTK sensor instead of Bosch. So far, it's been great. I don't log with my units - I can do that through my dash and/or my Megasquirt. If I hadn't looked at NGK, 14point7 would have been on my list as well because I heard some good things about them.

        From some of your other questions: Does the WAR chip / Miller software have an Autotune type functionality for fuel? That would make fuel tuning much easier. In my megasquirt, I just specify a target map, and drive the car, and the map adjusts until AFR hits the target. Ignition timing is a lot harder, really it's best to spend the money and get it done on a dyno. On a good dyno, with a knock sensor, you can build in an ideal map with the right safety margin. Anything else, you're pretty much guessing (Been there, done that)

        Knock Sensors: I have a J&S Interceptor wired in that I need to do some testing with and get configured this year. A cheap option I don't have experience with is knocksense (http://www.viatrack.ca/). Basically - to log the sensor there's hardware too, a controller similar so a WBO2 sensor / controller. Then the next level is deciding what frequencies at what RPM and loads actually represent knock and not just noise...
        sigpic
        Track Car Build | COM Sports Car Club

        Comment


        • #5
          The WAR chip does not have an auto tune. It basically is a chip writer wired right to your ECU. I make fuel and timing modifications to a few different maps and write to the chip.

          I have had the car on the dyno and we did some tuning. According to Miller I can run way more timing then we have and save some gas and get some more power. At the dyno we basically did WOT runs for the peak numbers. This is OK for tuning the WOT map but not the part throttle map. The only dyno close is a dynojet and I am not sure how do to the part throttle load testing on it. The operator was not familiar with BMW's and we did not do much with timing.

          I'm hopping to use a det can and watch the air flow vs RPM as I slowly adjust the timing. I am guessing I will pass volumetric efficiency (VE) before I get knock.

          Michael

          Comment


          • #6
            If you are doing this on the street and don't have Autotune, basically it's just drive the car, log AFR against load and RPM, see where you end up in the logs, modify the fuel map, repeat until you're where you want to be in terms of AFR... I haven't done it this way, but I'd imagine it'd take many iterations of this to hit all of the load cells...

            Personally, I wouldn't believe what anyone tells you you can run in terms of timing. Every engine is different. Really the only way to be sure is to have a knock sensor to tell you if it's safe. Even with that said, at a given RPM and load, you can increase timing and start losing power without getting knock. So, the only proper way to get the optimal tune is to do it on a load dyno like a dyno dynamics where you can see the instantaneous power output at every load cell...

            If it were me, I'd get the car running well on a conservative timing map, get the fuel map dialed in exactly how I wanted it, and then make the trip to see a competent tuner with a proper dyno when you get the chance...
            sigpic
            Track Car Build | COM Sports Car Club

            Comment


            • #7
              That is basically what I have been doing. I log ever time I drive the car which is daily right now. I make small adjustments and keep notes on what was adjusted. I am still not sure on where the target AFR should be for different loads but based on searching s14.net I think I am getting close.

              After I am done messing with it I plan to find a different dyno and get the timing right. But in the mean time I want to try some small adjustments.

              Michael

              Comment


              • #8
                SLC looks like a really good product. I will be trying the AEM set up as I hear that the Innovate recalibrates too many times
                Motorsport Hardware: Race and Street stud conversion kits for sale CLICK HERE!
                LIKE my facebook page so I can keep offering these great studs at the Best prices! CLICK HERE!
                www.Motorsporthardware.com
                5.7L LS1 M3

                Comment


                • #9
                  Now that I get a free sensor what should I get? Choices are:

                  EGT, MAP, Fluid temp, Air Intake Temp, Fuel Pressure, Oil Pressure.

                  Which would be biggest help in tuning? I am logging the MAF now but would the MAP be more representative of load? Coolant temperature would show me the warmup of the engine and such. Fuel pressure would show if the FPR is keeping fuel constant.

                  Ideas?

                  Michael

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    To help with tuning? I'd choose fuel pressure as it will let you know if you start having issues with your FPR or Fuel Pumps. Coolant Temp, Oil Temp, Oil pressure are all safety items you want to monitor, but aren't that much help in tuning (Although, CLT temp is often used as an input for many ECU's to help drive compensations and such...)

                    Do you still have an AIT sensor as part of your setup? My understanding is that in the stock AFM, there is an AIT sensor, and then compensation tables as part of the motronic that will retard timing as AIT goes up. E.g. if you tune the car at 60 degrees Fahrenheit, I think the motronic pulls ~3 degrees of timing by 100 degrees Fahrenheit.

                    Most people wouldn't think of that, but I had a detonation issue last year, and think that the lack of these compensations could have played a role... (I have the ability to do this, didn't have it set up right....)
                    sigpic
                    Track Car Build | COM Sports Car Club

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yes, the MAF conversion has an AIT built in. There is still at CTS and because of that I was considering logging coolant temp. This would tell me when the car is warmed up and which map it is using.

                      Michael

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        We've used many, many systems. Apex has done PLX, Innovative, SLC, Daytona Sensors & FJO just in the last year, and we're pretty much exclusively using the new AEM Inline Wideband now. At $179, its the best value, most consistent and we've had no issues at all. They've been more reliable than anything in the market.

                        -Neel
                        Neel Vasavada
                        Apex Speed Technology
                        2931 S. Sepulveda Blvd Suite F
                        Los Angeles, CA 90064
                        310.314.2005
                        [email protected]
                        www.apexspeedtech.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Apex Speed Tech View Post
                          We've used many, many systems. Apex has done PLX, Innovative, SLC, Daytona Sensors & FJO just in the last year, and we're pretty much exclusively using the new AEM Inline Wideband now. At $179, its the best value, most consistent and we've had no issues at all. They've been more reliable than anything in the market.

                          -Neel
                          What do you hook the AEM to to monitor? Do you have an external logger? Or hook to laptop?

                          Michael

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I use a TechEdge 2BO for my MAXX w/ closed loop compensation. Before the closed loop upgrade I only used it for monitoring the A/F and logging. The 2B0 production stopped in 2006, and was replaced by several models I believe the unit closest to mine is the 3B1. I 've recently added the newest version of there LD02B display, but originally I ran the LD02 version. The controller has the ability the run both displays simultaneously which I sometime do. The displays are connected to the controller via RJ45 connectors so removal is a breeze. I can't say enough great things about their product so I'll just leave it at that. Rather than dilute your post with all the specifics of my discontinued model, I'll just give a link to the TechEdge website.

                            http://wbo2.com/

                            BTW, the software you are using was originally developed for TechEdge users and is more or less an evolution of the old TEWBLOG software.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Michael, I thought I would bump this to see if there has been anymore feedback now that you've have it for a bit longer.

                              I have been looking for a wideband to use with the Maxx setup that I will soon be installing. Pretty well every thread that I find on here talks about using the Innovate LC1 unit with the Maxx setup. My research has been pointing me towards the 14point7 unit simply because I like the reviews that it is getting, and it seems to be a more capable unit than the LC1. Keep in mind, this is my first experience getting into wideband sensors and tuning, so I am not full of knowledge/confidence about making the right choice.

                              Ultimately, I am debating between buying an Innovate LC1 or 14point7 SLC. With the LC1 I am sure I can find all the help I need to get it running with the Maxx setup just looking through the archives. The SLC from 14point7 doesn't have as much info floating around. For a first timer with Maxx (and tuning in general) will I be getting in over my head with the SLC unit?

                              It seems like once I have the WB sensor hooked up properly I'll be able to adjust the Maxx software to read the voltage/AFR based on what the SLC is reading. Will it be any more difficult to have the Maxx running in closed loop while tuning with the SLC compared to the LC1?

                              -Peter

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X