Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Rebuild 2010...S54 going in.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Bruce View Post
    Last video of this motor I'll post..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WuSENC8v2k
    Damn, that really sucks! :shit:
    Need a good mechanic/fabricator/performance shop in SoCal?
    http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=155404

    Castro Motorsport

    12600 Sherman Way, Unit C
    North Hollywood, CA 91605
    (818) 765-3606

    The Purple ///Monster Build:
    http://www.s14.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47251

    Comment


    • Bruce,

      Sorry to see your engine fail, BUT Hey you did not crash or anything like that... could be a lot worst. Engine is a piece of metal that will be replaced..

      I can feel you man I had similar engine failure, (reason, due to poor exhaust).its not a good feeling knowing what did you go through etc.

      I have learned one thing through the years and and making a big note. Reliability is #1 priority when you are on Budget ! Because the moment is very short until the engine fail. If all of us we have open budget or Big budget that will be a different story.

      If you do any changes to your S54, such as different oil pan, raised rpm to around 8500rpm's etc. You are for sure pushing over the limit means faster possible wear/failure...

      My opinion is S54 is squeezed from the Factory to its limit and their is not much room to play in terms of Reliability !!!! High RPM"s kills any tip of engine and this one is making 7900rpm from the factory...that is already a lot! (I have a friend with E46 M3 with custom software and his making 8.600rpm's and with less than 90k miles driven hard on the street the engine was very worn for its miles.

      You can not produce serious power from S54 unless you raise rpm's means as of minimum of 8400rpm's. The Valves are small and light weight for easy revs and the cams have high lift to compensate the small restricted valve size.

      Small displacement, small Valves with high cam shaft lift works only with more rpm's to make high power! Lots of rpm's more problems...

      Gorila has very good technical point but not proven, it does make sense and last breath of try will prove his theory...

      That is not a good feel when you have to park your car until October etc until you fix the engine...

      Just my 02 cents
      Anri
      Last edited by First E30 M3; 04-11-2011, 06:29 PM.
      E30M3
      E28M5
      E24M6
      E24M6
      E24M6
      E24M6
      E31840Ci/S62.

      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyh...=dd&shelf_id=0

      Comment


      • define serious

        Originally posted by First E30 M3 View Post
        You can not produce serious power from S54 unless you raise rpm's means as of minimum of 8400rpm's.
        Anri
        Serious is a relative term.

        People that are putting on CF intakes, stepped headers, proper exhausts, pulley kits, deleting AC/PS, and using custom dyno tuning but not going past 8K might take issue with your statement.

        Just saying...
        91 Z1, 94 M-Technic S54, 95 M3 LTW S54 almost in, E39 540 6 MT (32K new engine)

        Comment


        • that's why I am so adamant to keep my S50B32 STOCK. And that includes the sump if I can manage it. They are enough trouble to run reliably in stock form, I just can't be bothered anymore to deal with a modified engine. But I don't race, so it doesn't really matter if I run a little less horsepower and slower laptimes.


          Goodbye M3, you served me well.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Alex Lipowich View Post
            Serious is a relative term.

            People that are putting on CF intakes, stepped headers, proper exhausts, pulley kits, deleting AC/PS, and using custom dyno tuning but not going past 8K might take issue with your statement.

            Just saying...
            Alex,

            All of us we sow what mother BMW Motorsport GmbH did as a final performance version of S54 road car called E46 M3 CSL as far as I remember they were manage to pull 360hp at the engine with internal change!

            So, what they (BMW) did vs your example of making upgrades really is not a strong proof to your reply, i think

            BMW was manage to pull reliable ONLY 17hp gain compare the stock euro S54 came with 343hp. CSL engine is using diff cam, Alpha-N (if I am not mistaken), Carbon fiber air box, maf delete, no AC etc... again for only 17hp !

            When I said serious power the word does not match 17hp gain from all these upgrades you mentioned above, and even in your example you dont have internal camshaft change.

            My opinion, to your example with these bolt on external parts you are making the engine to flow better, releasing some holds/tension using lightweight pulleys, no AC, tune on dyno helps to make it work as a package. But, that will improve only drive ability and how fast the engine will rev, free flow, and light weight pulleys for sure these parts will bring so insignificant hp gain, may be ~15hp who knows...

            When BMW Motorsport build the race version of S54 called P54 they were manage to pull at the engine ~450hp with 300pf/t @ 8500rpm's, vanos delete and +308.. cams to move the power band up in the sky, ~+12-13cr. Guess how reliable that engine is ?.....

            My opinion is, from stock S54 343hp and P54 450hp maxed out with poor unknown reliability..? I believe my vision of "serious" power out of S54 with Reliability is some were around engine +/- 380hp and not raising the rpm's using stock 7900 limiter.

            I am s38 guy and I always like to play with S38 3.6 not mention 3.8..vs S54-euroS50 3.2 because you have the most important free hp called Displacement.

            S54 is managed to make 343hp out of 11.5cr and 7900rpm's 50mm TB's, big head flow etc..that is squeezed hp out of this engine and these hp are reliable. Even their built factory tested tons of hours and thousands of testing miles before they release the car to the show room. Not even after 1 year BMW did recall on the rod bearings. I believe the Z3 M-coupe S54 powered did not fail into that recall engine failure because the engine revs to 7400 same as euro S50-B32... Only E46 M3 had this recall because of making 500rpm's more... And this theory proves more RPM's more problems..

            Alex, I am waiting for your friendly reply :gotcha:

            Just my 02 cents,
            Regards
            Anri
            E30M3
            E28M5
            E24M6
            E24M6
            E24M6
            E24M6
            E31840Ci/S62.

            https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyh...=dd&shelf_id=0

            Comment


            • Originally posted by UweM3 View Post
              that's why I am so adamant to keep my S50B32 STOCK. And that includes the sump if I can manage it. They are enough trouble to run reliably in stock form, I just can't be bothered anymore to deal with a modified engine. But I don't race, so it doesn't really matter if I run a little less horsepower and slower laptimes.
              +1 UWE,

              Very well said my friend

              We are on the same page. Reliability is #1 priority to our purpose.

              Uwe, even if you race I sill believe its not that important to make unreliable hp gain... neither of us hear regardless racing in a club racing or for fun with friends the lap time is that important vs Reliability! at least for me...

              The most I would do to keep the reliability is like Alex gave his example with external bolt on-s, exhaust, intake, etc. but that is it...

              E30 M3 with S-Engine is already sweet fast car... You bother for more power you deal with more problems...becasue the rule "Regardless what kind of power you pull out, their will be always faster than you" based on that reliability comes priority...

              Regards
              Anri
              E30M3
              E28M5
              E24M6
              E24M6
              E24M6
              E24M6
              E31840Ci/S62.

              https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyh...=dd&shelf_id=0

              Comment


              • Yup...rod bolt failure. All rods were showing signs of problems. #3 bearing was spun as well. Piston sleeve #4 has 4 holes in it- one out each side of block and one to each adjoining cylinder. Head might be salvagable.

                Comment


                • Thank you for passing the diagnosis along. I think that arp rod bolts and fresh bearings should be a rule of thumb on these motors.

                  Sam

                  Comment


                  • Hi,

                    Quote-

                    ''You can not produce serious power from S54 unless you raise rpm's means as of minimum of 8400rpm's. The Valves are small and light weight for easy revs and the cams have high lift to compensate the small restricted valve size.''

                    BMW MS acknowledge that the standard S54 can and does
                    incur ''valve float'' at 8250 rpm and above.

                    This is in part why the standard engine is red lined
                    at 7750 rpm.

                    Most standard S54 Torque curves are falling away
                    at around 7000 rpm, so increasing revs past
                    say 8000 rpm only really increases the stress load
                    into the engine for very little, if any real gain.

                    The second point is that for every 250 rpm that an engine
                    exceeds its rev limit, the additional stress loaded into
                    the componets is approx equal to an extra linear 25%.

                    So at 8400 rpm you have increased the stress loads into the
                    engine components by a further 50%.

                    This explains why you require not only frequent re-builds
                    but that for 8400 rpm you require, solid lifters, uprated
                    valve springs, uprated valve retainers,
                    which is a lot money just for the valve train.

                    It gets very expensive for quite small power gains.

                    It also explains that when BMW MS developed the P54 race
                    engine, items like the Race Vanos at
                    approx 10,000 euro a time have there life span rated in hours.

                    I think its forgotten that the S54 is already in the
                    same company as F1 engine Piston speeds and
                    how often are they rebuilt.

                    4. BMW M3 (Germany)
                    Engine Code: S54
                    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.58"
                    Redline: 8000rpm
                    Piston Speed: 4773.33 Ft/min

                    Regards,

                    The Gorilla.

                    Comment


                    • Please read carefully.

                      Anri,

                      My father was not born in this country, he sometimes misunderstands things he reads too quickly, so I mean no disrespect when I suggest you re-read my post.

                      It starts with a question to you in its title, which you did not address:

                      "Define serious"

                      Then I state that serious is a relative term.
                      How can you argue with that?

                      I suggest that you may define it differently than people with said mods.

                      If you read my post, "I" don't claim to define serious, I only question how you define "serious" to back up your claim it can't be reliable....

                      I did say, and I maintain that I'm correct, is that OTHERS might define it differently and be quite happy with those mods making what THEY consider "serious" HP with a still reliable engine.

                      So for the sake of discussion, where does "serious" begin for you? Is it a specific number (example 400 hp) or is it a certain HP/Liter, say 120 HP/liter?

                      How DO you define it?

                      Answer, and we can have an intelligent discussion of whether an S54 with bolt on mods can reach your defined "serious" power level and still be reliable.....

                      I think 330+ on the "somewhat-standard-for-the-US-Dynojet" is pretty serious at the wheels when you start with 3.246 liters.

                      Not many production motors playing in that field, and its a credit to BMW's basic design of the engine that they can go there and still be reliable at 8000 rpm.......


                      Course, you and I may not agree on what reliable is either!
                      91 Z1, 94 M-Technic S54, 95 M3 LTW S54 almost in, E39 540 6 MT (32K new engine)

                      Comment


                      • Don't want to edit the above

                        To be more crystal clear....

                        I do not think the CSL example has any relevance to the discussion.

                        Take a stock car that people are starting with.

                        Remove AC
                        Put on Stepped headers.
                        Put on 3.5 exhaust.
                        Put on pulleys.
                        Run EPS or delete PS
                        Run a CF intake that is properly designed (without HFM of course, and free flowing)
                        Properly shield intake from heat
                        Replace the rod bolts
                        TUNE the engine on a dyno with your weapon of choice

                        Sorry, but the above, held below 8000 rpm is still reliable, and will kick ass on any CSL with the 17 extra hp, and make what is in my book, "serious" power out of 3.246 liters.
                        91 Z1, 94 M-Technic S54, 95 M3 LTW S54 almost in, E39 540 6 MT (32K new engine)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Alex Lipowich View Post

                          I think 330+ on the "somewhat-standard-for-the-US-Dynojet" is pretty serious at the wheels when you start with 3.246 liters.

                          Not many production motors playing in that field, and its a credit to BMW's basic design of the engine that they can go there and still be reliable at 8000 rpm.......


                          Course, you and I may not agree on what reliable is either!
                          Alex,

                          I tried to express my vision of word serious, reliable power out of S54 without raising the rev limiter.

                          Well, I believe you are very knowledgeable in specially at S50 and S54 but please correct me if I am wrong ?

                          From what I understand according to your book 330+rwhp with the external bolts on can be achieved with no problem.

                          How is that possible to GAIN from stock around 275rwhp-280rwhp to 330rwhp that is the Grand total of 55rwhp ?

                          To my knowledge to increase HP out of an engine you have to the following"

                          - Increase the Volumetric Efficiency on the cylinder head means heavy head work..
                          - Bigger Intake and Exhaust valves to increase the cylinder filling.
                          - Higher Cam duration including high valve lift in order the match the head flow and valve size and more air/gas mixture to supply the cylinder.
                          - Higher compression ration
                          - To max out the points said above you need more RPM's.

                          So 330+rwhp with ONLY external bolts on I did calculate that you are pulling 400hp at the engine.

                          So, may I ask then WHAT will be the gain according to your book if you do internal changes such as cams, valves, higher compression ~13cr, 8500 rpms. To my calculation according to your bolts on you were able to manage 55rwhp. So based on that with internal changes I should see at engine as of min of 480hp+ ?

                          I will believe on that external bolts on only if a engine dyno is used.... then I can agree. But till that point I will remain on the other side of the line.. its hard for me to believe. But like I said I might be completely wrong.

                          I have a friend doing S54-B32 in a E30 M3 race chassis and he will be using the Eather Pectel SQ-6 ot MoTec all the external bolts on will be used and I will see how it will go. The car will be tuned by Neel.

                          Anri
                          E30M3
                          E28M5
                          E24M6
                          E24M6
                          E24M6
                          E24M6
                          E31840Ci/S62.

                          https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyh...=dd&shelf_id=0

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bruce View Post
                            Yup...rod bolt failure. All rods were showing signs of problems. #3 bearing was spun as well. Piston sleeve #4 has 4 holes in it- one out each side of block and one to each adjoining cylinder. Head might be salvagable.
                            Hell, it looked like fun till the last drop though
                            Photos

                            Comment


                            • 280 to 330 HP: HOW TO DO IT

                              Anri,

                              3 type of mods that are considered "bolt on" items allow the change from 280's to 330's with reliability intact. (in my opinion)

                              1) Rod bolts, obvious reliability improvement, no change in performance

                              2) Decreasing parasitic losses. Pulley systems, removing AC, PS to EPS or delete.

                              3) Streamlining air in and out, and then TUNING for performance, not emissions or economy.

                              Taken together power that was wasted is available to the wheels, and the engine flows better.

                              Yes, it may well be that adding performance cams ON TOP of this might yield incremental improvements as well, but we get into potential mechanical reliability issues with wear and tear.

                              People can argue until they're blue in the face that what I'm saying is not intuitive, or that it doesn't make sense, or they don't understand how it can be... but this is what people are finding on the dyno all across the country.

                              I can hypothesize that the basic cylinderhead flows so well that compromises for daily drivability (AC, PS, packaging, noise, emissions, economy) have made the difference, and when you un-do these items you find the engine is capable of being retuned to take advantage of increased air coming in and leaving, and we can get rid of wasted power to achieve what I consider serious power for the displacement.

                              So, part is removing parasitic losses, part is improving breathing where its restricted on a stock car.

                              It all adds up apparently. Each engine is unique I suspect in terms of where there is restriction, and what works on one, may not on another. Getting rid of parasitic drag will get harder and harder for us enthusiasts as engineers get smarter about design in the first place.

                              Witness variable speed electric water pumps for example. No pulley, no drag, only a small incremental need for the alternator to work harder which is found in the real world to decrease parasitic losses. EPS is another example....

                              I suspect that there will be changes and improvements in alternator technology, or if you will the way that a battery is kept charged to decrease parasitic losses as well, possibly in the field of regenerative braking etc.... to where we may end up with a mere vestige of the old fashioned, heavy, parasitic alternator...
                              91 Z1, 94 M-Technic S54, 95 M3 LTW S54 almost in, E39 540 6 MT (32K new engine)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by First E30 M3 View Post
                                1) So 330+rwhp with ONLY external bolts on I did calculate that you are pulling 400hp at the engine.

                                2) So, may I ask then WHAT will be the gain according to your book if you do internal changes such as cams, valves, higher compression ~13cr, 8500 rpms. To my calculation according to your bolts on you were able to manage 55rwhp. So based on that with internal changes I should see at engine as of min of 480hp+ ?

                                3) I will believe on that external bolts on only if a engine dyno is used.... then I can agree. But till that point I will remain on the other side of the line.. its hard for me to believe. But like I said I might be completely wrong.

                                4) I have a friend doing S54-B32 in a E30 M3 race chassis and he will be using the Eather Pectel SQ-6 ot MoTec all the external bolts on will be used and I will see how it will go. The car will be tuned by Neel.
                                1) There is little consensus on how to do the conversion you mention, and no point to discussing it. If you have before and after dyno on the same chassis and car, you're in the ball park of estimating the changes.

                                2) If 480 is the number you define to be serious power, I agree with you, that it is not possible to reliably make 480 HP at the crank from an S54. I have no opinion, and never have about what you might make with cams, compression, valves, and increased redline. If Chuck Stickley's Utube video is to believed, he's making power in the range you describe. I doubt that it falls under your definition of of reliable, it doesn't fall into mine, and its over $40,000 without labor I think he says.

                                3) You're entitled to your opinion. I think that +/- 5 HP chassis dynos are not that far off, and provide useful tools for rough estimates of before and after.

                                4) I'll be shocked if Neel doesn't coax 330 at the rears out of that project if he's gone with stepped headers, CF intake, 3.5 inch exhaust and lost the AC/PS and used pulleys.

                                Bruce sorry to hijack, get your car rebuilt, show us 330 at the rears!
                                Last edited by Alex Lipowich; 04-13-2011, 02:59 AM. Reason: typo
                                91 Z1, 94 M-Technic S54, 95 M3 LTW S54 almost in, E39 540 6 MT (32K new engine)

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X