E30 s14 turbo conversions who else?

[martybee58]

Well have nt I caused a stir!!!

All the parts cost £1400 honestly

I did all the work myself so no labour costs.

I’m a 3D cad designer and I have acess to a laser cutter so all flanges and brackets cost very little.

Ironhead, why would I bullsh*t? I don’t know anybody on here so I don’t feel the need to impress. At the bottom of this post I’ve included a breakdown of everything I’ve put into the conversion. I am many things but not a bullshitter.

I have had one dyno run but it was just to get a power figure. I own a Wideband O2 sensor (innovate LM1) so all the mapping was done by myself and a friend (cheers Doug).

If any body wants any exhaust flanges or brackets made I have drawings for everything I have done including Exhaust flanges, T3 turbo flanges, 36-1 trigger wheels, crank sensor brackets, coil pack brackets and TPS brackets. I can easily get any of these cut out at a little over cost? (hardtailer?)

Hardtailer- I took the MAP signal from the 4mm brass pipes on top of each TB. As you probably know they need to be taken between the throttle butterfly and the inlet valve. You are quite right, I had to link a pipe between all four to get a smooth signal due to pumping. The ignition timing is very different from std I’d imagine. I don’t know what the std timing is like as I started with an escort cosworth ign map and dialled out any det from there.

The megasquirt ECU uses either Alpha-N (RPM vs TPS) or TPS/MAP (TPS vs manifold pressure) For forced induction you need TPS/MAP. Either way you don’t need an AFM.

Air filter 10
Injectors 40
Head gasket 72.85
Decomp plate 100
Exhaust tube 3" 60
Mega squirt 225
Get head skimmed 20
Edis 4 5
Coil pack & H.T leads 5
Intercooler core 200
Fuel pressure regulator 20
High temp sealant 15
Blow off valve 25
Boost gauge 25
Oil pressure guage 20
Turbo T3 105
Gauge pod 7.50
T3 to T04b conversion 150
Turbo oil feed and drain 12
Jubilee clips 5
Wire and ECU fuses 1
Oil and filter 30
3x 3" 90deg bends 30
2x 2.5" 90deg bends 30
Exhaust box 80
Exhaust wrap 2" x 50' 33.50
Lambda sensor 2
Air temp sensor 1
Silicone sensor hose 20
Tee's for sensor hose 3
TOTAL 1352.85

Most of these parts came from ebay. I always try to avoid car tuning shops as they know how to charge. For example I went to industrial suppliers for the stainless exhaust tube and oil feed pipes. O2 sensor, edis bits, air temp sensor etc all came from scrap yard. Just using my noggin really. I’m hoping to get some pics posted soon but if you cant wait just PM me and I’ll be happy to send them.

[Rowdy Burns]

Just to mention that all the above prices are in Great British pounds not dollars.

Ironhead, I would be interested to see what you think the materials to make a turbo manifold and 3" stainless exhaust actually cost? If you buy a $1000 exhaust from regular sources I would bet that only 10% of that covers materials. The rest goes towards wages, overheads, advertising etc.

If you can weld and have reasonable fabrication skills there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to make you own exhaust components quite easily and therefore save the other 90%.

Hopefully the picture below will work and show you how good Marty's conversion is.

[martybee58]

forgtot....

"Wasn't this featured in an episode of Monster Garage? I think the episode was titled "Bavarian Hairdryer". The car retained it's stock appearance, yet could dry wet hair with hot gasses emitted from the tailpipe. Build tally? $2400."

WBSAK03, bet my hairdryer can dry more hair, and faster, than yours!!! ;-)

And to answer some of the other questions.......

On the T3 i used there is a built in wastegate.

The tube i made the manifold with was purchased from my local pipeline center. I think it is weldable gas pipe? (really thick wall) and i got 90deg weldable bends which are a really tight radius (must be forged or really good castings). the bends cost £12 for 4 and i got the pipe for free. They only sell it in 3m lengths so i asked if they had any offcuts. If you dont ask, you dont get.

Sorry i forgot to put this in the total costings it might just push it over the $24,000!!!

:t: I pity the fool!!!

[Ironhead]

Originally posted by martybee58


I did all the work myself so no labour costs.

I’m a 3D cad designer and I have acess to a laser cutter so all flanges and brackets cost very little.

If any body wants any exhaust flanges or brackets made I have drawings for everything I have done including Exhaust flanges, T3 turbo flanges, 36-1 trigger wheels, crank sensor brackets, coil pack brackets and TPS brackets. I can easily get any of these cut out at a little over cost? (hardtailer?)

This is pretty much precisely my point.....You have access to VERY specialized, expensive machinery and services that 99.9% of the people here would have to pay out the arse to a professional to get done. You refered to your manifold for example, as being "home made". A manifold cannot be home made....it MIGHT have been made at your CAD shop with the laser cutters and such, but you would still need a skilled welder (and equipment) not to mention maybe a mandrel pipe bender and god knows what else. Home made? No.

I think it is fair to say "I did all the work myself so no labour costs" if you bolted the thing together and did the basic tuning. But you are talking about very advanced fabrication of parts, not to mention things like pipe bending and welding (which you made no mention of) that would be required to complete the job. So it is grossly misleading to say that you have a 1400lb turbo installation.

As an analogy, it would be like a guy who works for Roush Racing saying "hey, I just built a 800 HP Ford small block, and it only cost $500 for a short block off of Ebay, I did all the work myself so no labor charges!" What he is saying might technically be true, but very misleading. Someone who does NOT work for Roush Racing would have to pay $30K for such an engine.....

Some of your parts prices seem very low, even for "Ebay".....20 lbs for an adjustable FPR?....But be that as it may.....

I am not trying to get on your case, I just don't think it is right for people here to think "wow, just 1400 lbs to turbo my car! I can afford that!"

[LeeVuong]

To IronHead.

Our British friend only said that it cost him a certain amount and clearly explained that he is skilled enough to make the fabrication himself. He is kind enough to give a price list of things he has used to achieve such a result and even did not hide that list so that he can make money off our back. He never said that this was what the whole package was worth. Only what he paid for. I do not understand why for the past three days you are on his back trying to push your point. He is skilled enough to build it, perhaps you are not. He can build a turbo motor for cheap, perhaps you can't.

Some people do not even know how to change a sparkplug and they have to pay others to do it. Well, too bad for them, it will cost. There is no reason to be angry against those who know how to change a sparkplug or build a turbo motor.

[Ironhead]

Originally posted by LeeVuong
He can build a turbo motor for cheap, perhaps you can't.

Some people do not even know how to change a sparkplug and they have to pay others to do it. Well, too bad for them, it will cost. There is no reason to be angry against those who know how to change a sparkplug or build a turbo motor.

You are right. I cannot build a turbo motor for cheap. Too bad for me. I am not "gifted".:rolleyes:

[martybee58]

Ok, ironhead i take your point. But all the 'parts' have cost under £1400. If you dont believe me PM me and i'll gladly send you the links to the parts i have won so you can see for yourself. The fuel pressure regs are not adjustable, they are boost sensing. Nearly all ford FI turbo cars have them.

Also, if anybody wants and laser cutting done it will no longer be expensive!! ;-)

I have nt bent a single pipe on the car!! you can buy mandrel bends so cheap its not worth the hassle.

Have you ever tried to weld ironhead? I assure you it is not difficult. I have no welding/fabricating qualifications yet the welding was the easy part of the conversion.

As mentioned in an earlier post, wiring was quite simple as well. As long as you know how to solder wire. If you dont then this could be an aditional cost which was not included in the first post.

[jht3]

can anyone post pics of what a turbo manifold looks like? is there a good site that explains the basics of a turbo system?

[///Mflossin]

I just read through this whole thread and it still seems as if people are missing the point. I completely and totally agree with Ironhead. It is possible that an exhaust manifold alone could cost $1,000 if you had to pay somebody to design, bend, cut and weld a one off if not more. You CANNOT include your access and knowledge to CAD 3 or 5 to the price tag. If I were to go out and outsource the work it took to get a manifold together that worked....it would be costly. If I was a CAD designer and had access to great tools and equipment along with a skilled welder....well shit, I'm golden. The bottom line if that you are not walking away from any turbo project on a BMW for less than $5K and anybody who thinks otherwise is silly. If you have access to special equipment and you do the work yourself...possibly. Otherwise....no way.

[LeeVuong]

Great work Martybee. A friend of mine built (for cheap) a 250HP M10 motor with parts from the scrapyard: Merkur XR4Ti turbo, ignition etc. It cost him a few evenings of his time, scratching his head, scuffing his knuckles, but he managed to build a highly powerfull daily driven 250HP 8 valve, 2 liter motor. If he were rich, he would have paid someone to build it. He is not and did all the work. The results are just the same.

[BMG]

Here's a couple of pics of the car Martin sent me. I like
Who cares about the cost ? The guy built it for what he said he did and never laid claim that just anyone could do the same.

[wookie1976]

Martybee58 and Ironhead both make good points. The cost is slightly misleading to the average person who doesnt have a technical grasp of the work required to complete such a complicated project. On the other hand, anyone with even a marginal amount of technial apptitude will see that the total cash spent does not account for a large percentage of the undocumented labor costs that would be incurred for those not having the tools or abilities to complete such a project themselves.

I dont see that Ironhead is busting balls here, he is merely arguing that there are some forum browsers out there that may be mislead by the advertised costs of the project. Of course, I never list my time when doing my own work either as I dont consider my time as an expense.

Either way, your project is certainly an interesting one. I appreciate you posting your project details as Im interested in how you solved some of the inherent problems associated with forced induction on an S14, especially for the costs involved.

Congrats on the success of the conversion, and welcome to the forum!

[LeeVuong]

Hey MartyBoy. Great job again. While watching the pictures, suddenly something striked me. Turbo + 4 throttles? It is a widely spread belief that a force-induction motor should better have only ONE throttle. Perhaps you could easily make a simpler intake by using 4 aluminum pipes leading to an aluminum airbox with only one throttle. Those M3 independent throttles are VERY heavy. So, you could save some weight at the same time and forget about having to sync the 4 throttles... You can also dampen the pulse from the vacuum by connecting the four nipples to a small canister, and then up to the BOV or regulator. Keep on the good work mate.

[UweM3]

Originally posted by ///Mflossin
I just read through this whole thread and it still seems as if people are missing the point. I completely and totally agree with Ironhead. It is possible that an exhaust manifold alone could cost $1,000 if you had to pay somebody to design, bend, cut and weld a one off if not more. You CANNOT include your access and knowledge to CAD 3 or 5 to the price tag. If I were to go out and outsource the work it took to get a manifold together that worked....it would be costly. If I was a CAD designer and had access to great tools and equipment along with a skilled welder....well shit, I'm golden. The bottom line if that you are not walking away from any turbo project on a BMW for less than $5K and anybody who thinks otherwise is silly. If you have access to special equipment and you do the work yourself...possibly. Otherwise....no way.

no offence against anyone. But I think you are missing a point.
I fully believe that I would be able to make the same sort of manifold at home as well. Might not work as good as the one for $1000, but if it performs 90%, than I am still happy.

Not everything needs to be super optimized and engineered to 101% efficiency (demanding HUGE budgets), sometimes 2nd best is still good enough.

I am a skilled sheet metal worker (and now CAD designer) and have made a lot of things at home. (you would be surprised what you can do on AutoCAD LIGHT)

Of course it does help if you have a buddy here or there (I don't pay a lot for laser cutting as well, just have to wait till there is a "slot" for my homework) doing jobs for mates rates.

One of my mates is doing turbos as well. He doesn't bother with everything smoothed and shining either (improve port design? sorry, don't have time for that. I just raise the boost 2psi)

I have great respect for the work he has done (because he has done it himself and not thrown money at it) and of course it can also blow up in a big bang. But I am sure he is aware of the risks.

I am looking forward to see the car in flesh one day. I have to agree that some of the prices seem quite low to me as well, but can imagine if you have enough time to hunt down the scrap yards there are some bargains to have if you know what you are looking for.

[Anders]

Originally posted by LeeVuong
It is a widely spread belief that a force-induction motor should better have only ONE throttle. Perhaps you could easily make a simpler intake by using 4 aluminum pipes leading to an aluminum airbox with only one throttle.

Individual throttle bodies:
Skyline GT-R V spec
Tons of E36 M3 turbos
BMW F1