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  • ///schwartzman
    started a topic Turbo vs. NA

    Turbo vs. NA

    C'mon guys, those numbers I try and forget... But it isn't cheap.

    Why does motor swap always invariably come up in comparison to turbo builds? Is it the old adage "no replacement for displacement..." IMO the turbo niche is for those who like the S14 for what it was & is, with what it can be Once you've gone forced induction it's hard to NOT consider it a viable option on just about any car (cost independent) if VAC can pull it off it just benefits the community, hats off!

  • Az in Oz
    replied
    I'm hearing you Rich. I'm waiting on three parts from the US to get mine going.
    3rd baby due in July...... I need to get a move on lol

    Leave a comment:


  • ///schwartzman
    replied
    My 450 hp benchmark project is taking longer than I could've ever imagined... Getting irritated without my car... Withdrawal symptoms.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ted B
    replied
    Originally posted by EDOM3 View Post
    It`s one thing to be able to build powerful engine for a car, it`s another to be able to drive it.
    Those of us with 600whp cars will agree. More power demands more attention to suspension, braking, driving skills, and ultimately common sense. No question about that.

    As for it being 'unnecessary', that's purely a matter of opinion. 20 years ago, 600whp was well out on the fringe for a street car in the U.S. Not so in 2011. I don't plan to convert my present 600whp car back to a 300whp car ... ever.

    Leave a comment:


  • EDOM3
    replied
    It`s funny how people just toss around huge hp numbers like it`s an everyday thing.
    500whp for any car is a lot of power to take care of. It`s one thing to be able to
    build powerful engine for a car, it`s another to be able to drive it. Most people cannot do that with skill. 600hp is unnecessary IMO; especially for the e30 M3. Look at the Super GT cars here in Japan. They`re limited to 500hp, yet the`re the fastest cars out there. Nissan runs it`s GT-R with a N/A V8 over here in that series by the way. :gotcha:

    Leave a comment:


  • Az in Oz
    replied
    You guys speak the truth :gotcha:

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  • Ted B
    replied
    Originally posted by blaquea8 View Post
    250-300whp is all the more I think I would want for a semi-daily driver. But I don't want turbo lag either or the huge price tag of a full-on 2.5L engine build.
    I have to agree with Anders.

    No amount of planning makes this as inexpensive or straightforward as it seems, and the reward would be nominal.

    FWIW, a 300whp turbo setup, properly done, wouldn't be laggy in the least and have torque that kicks like a mule. Subi STis and EVOs are examples of that. It would cost roughly the same as a smartly engineered 500-600whp capable turbo setup.

    There's just no cheap, easy option. Getting real power means getting into it hands and feet, and having a budget and skills (or access to skilled help).

    Leave a comment:


  • Anders
    replied
    I think your goals are totally reasonable and that it would be reliable. I think, though, that you'll end up spending a lot of money on the project for a powerlevel that you will get used to/get tired of quickly.

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  • blaquea8
    replied
    Originally posted by Anders View Post
    Jonas had massive reliability issues with that system and (finally) gave in a put a turbo on instead. To reach the power he did, the system put out too much boost down low and killed axles over and over again. He also destroyed the supercharger at least once.
    But for a street machine I don't think I would want that much power at all. It just doesn't seem very practical in my mind. 450+whp is too much. 250-300whp is all the more I think I would want for a semi-daily driver. But I don't want turbo lag either or the huge price tag of a full-on 2.5L engine build. Drop the compression a bit via pistons and a new headgasket designed for FI (ARP hardware of course as well) run modest boost levels and I don't think one would be breaking stuff like Jonas was.

    Leave a comment:


  • ///schwartzman
    replied
    I can imagine... As soon as the pulleys start moving you're under boost pressure. What I can't imagine, having 2-3 spare axles, driveshafts or transmissions "just in case..."

    Leave a comment:


  • Anders
    replied
    Jonas had massive reliability issues with that system and (finally) gave in a put a turbo on instead. To reach the power he did, the system put out too much boost down low and killed axles over and over again. He also destroyed the supercharger at least once.

    Leave a comment:


  • blaquea8
    replied
    Originally posted by ///schwartzman View Post
    Ok, I'll buy that...(not literally) I like the billet belt pulley solution. Was that system ever installed? Trying to visualize the radiator fitting... Not a fan of the plenum design but everything else looks like it will work.

    You could fit the T-bird throttle inside the Q45 one, which when coupled with the huge MAF made by Nissan it will probably be pretty reliable...@$100 at a local yard.
    The system was installed and a dyno registered 450+whp!!! But he couldn't get it to run consistantly due to tuning issues and adapting a chip was tough since they were all for turbos and Mega Squirt didn't exist yet (and most of the other options were WAY too spendy to make it worthwhile) so he eventually scrapped it and went with a turbo setup instead. Granted, the Autorotor unit is a bit more efficient compared to the Eaton but it's also a LOT more expensive! Size-wise though I think the M90 and the Autorotor unit were about the same. As far as the plenum goes - I seem to recall reading that he didn't put that much into it since it was now a pressurized system so the plenum didn't need to be as big as the stock one anything all that special. I would love to figure out a way to still use the stock one but I think there might be a space issue to do that. Looks-wise though that would be ideal.

    The M90 is recommened for 3.0L - 5.7L engines but again, with the S14 flow characteristics, I think it could be a good match up. The ability to tune it correctly is the only big issue in my head. Eaton claims a "realistic 40%+ increase in power output" which I think would be pretty decent - since twin-screw blowers basically make boost off idle. I have also read that twin-screws are one of the most reliable FI systems that one can do. And for street applications I think the flatter power curve would be a lot safer. I also think the sound would be intoxicating! I wonder if one could even do a custom carbon plenum...hmmm...now THAT would really sound amazing!!!

    I think the builder of the engine pictured is still on the S14.net boards but I don't know for sure since that build in the pics was from awhile ago. The intercooler pictured slipped in right in front of the radiator and there are pics of the fitment on that Swede forum I linked to earlier (although I think he used a 540i radiator for increased cooling). I had Google translate the page that I linked to and have read through most of it in an effort to learn from all of his troubleshooting.

    The big draw for me the is to do something awesome but still unique. I know that sounds kind of weird...but I like trying out new things that haven't really been done a lot (at least not successfully). But it Mercedes can strap an Eaton onto the 4-banger found in the SLK230 then I don't see why one couldn't figure out a way to do the same to the S14. :evilnah:

    Just takes time and $$$ :gotcha:

    Leave a comment:


  • ///schwartzman
    replied
    Ok, I'll buy that...(not literally) I like the billet belt pulley solution. Was that system ever installed? Trying to visualize the radiator fitting... Not a fan of the plenum design but it looks like it will work.

    You could fit the T-bird throttle inside the Q45 one (looks like the one in the photo), which when coupled with the huge MAF made by Nissan it will probably be pretty reliable...@$100 at a local yard. Huge gains...
    Last edited by ///schwartzman; 01-11-2011, 09:30 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • blaquea8
    replied
    Originally posted by ///schwartzman View Post
    I'd actually like to see an Eaton M90 or the larger one adapted to an S14, they are only @$200 in junkyards. Our belt system could stand to be upgraded to eliminate the p/s pump and alt. brackets maybe to a billet underdrive pulleys in a serpentine configuration. A custom intercooler / plenum probably would likely be best suited with a 76-90mm throttle-body (Infiniti Q45) and MAF than the ITB butterfly plates should help to get a good tune (optional of course). This combination should yield @270whp reliably and have excellent street manners. You can play with the s/c pulley diameter to squeeze a little more power from it but heat and efficiency become a consideration. A headgasket may be necessary, but the stock 9.8:1 should be fine for 7psi or .5 BAR of boost... Anything more I would install an intercooler, not an option. Weight would be about the same as a turbo setup although biased to the front drivers side.

    Modifications:
    Standalone EMS
    MAF
    Throttle body
    Custom or modified plenum (with or without intercooler)
    Remove ITB butterfly plates
    Eaton M90 s/c with support bracket
    Billet pulleys (optional)
    Crap man...you took my thoughts right out of my head. That was EXACTLY what I was thinking of doing with my M3 when a buddy offered me the newly reman'd M90 as well as all the intercooler piping, throttle body etc. from the T-bird that he was planning to rebuild but ended up scrapping instead. Sold me all of it for $125...seemed stupid to pass up the deal at the time. This doesn't look all that hard to do and I am sure that the SC whine would sound pretty amazing added to the symphony that our engine already produces. Pics are of the Autorotor SC engine I spoke of earlier built by M3Jonas if memory serves me. READ MORE HERE



    Leave a comment:


  • ///schwartzman
    replied
    I'd actually like to see an Eaton M90 or the larger one adapted to an S14, they are only @$200 in junkyards. Our belt system could stand to be upgraded to eliminate the p/s pump and alt. brackets maybe to a billet underdrive pulleys in a serpentine configuration. A custom intercooler / plenum probably would likely be best suited with a 76-90mm throttle-body (Infiniti Q45) and MAF than the ITB butterfly plates should help to get a good tune (optional of course). This combination should yield @270whp reliably and have excellent street manners. You can play with the s/c pulley diameter to squeeze a little more power from it but heat and efficiency become a consideration. A headgasket may be necessary, but the stock 9.8:1 should be fine for 7psi or .5 BAR of boost... Anything more I would install an intercooler, not an option. Weight would be about the same as a turbo setup although biased to the front drivers side.

    Modifications:
    Standalone EMS
    MAF
    Throttle body
    Custom or modified plenum (with or without intercooler)
    Remove ITB butterfly plates
    Eaton M90 s/c with support bracket
    Billet pulleys (optional)
    Last edited by ///schwartzman; 01-11-2011, 05:04 AM.

    Leave a comment:

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