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  • #16
    Originally posted by wazzu70 View Post
    Use a MAP sensor as mentioned. You will probably want to use a standalone that will let you run Alpha-N near idle and cross over to speed density above that point. Most can do this, but its something to keep in mind.

    Interested to see what you do with an S14 Don.
    Hey Nick!! Yeah going to be fun playing with a different format. Also going to be nice doing a build thats designed for street use and minimal HP goals!! I'm looking forward to it actually.

    Thanks for the suggestion too!!

    Don

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ///schwartzman View Post
      You could simplify the process and remove the butterflies in the ITB's and adapt a 90mm Ford Mustang T-body to the stock plenum... Just an idea, as costs can get out of hand quite quickly.

      Undoubtedly the ViPEC V88 & harness from Neel @APEX has the best, tried & true setup for the S14. If I can offer any advice from my experience don't take a shortcut here... Neel has been helpful to me and I haven't even bought his system... Basically because he has an 8-12 week lead time, just accept his timeline you won't be disappointed.
      Or...
      Research the tuners in your area and what they are adept at tuning. I also suggest using a shop that uses a DynaPack to tune. Due to the proliferation of Hondas and Toyota/Scion's, the AEM EMS-4 has emerged as a very affordable option that a mass of tuners WILL tune vs DIY type kits like VEMS or MegaSquirt which most won't. My understanding is MoTEC has reduced their usual astronomical prices on their entry level EMS like the M-400 in the last season.

      Forced induction is definitely an undertaking, and most take the easier S54 swap route but in the end... That's all they'll be seeing, rear-end. Good luck!
      Yeah I've already witnessed some Megasquirt messes....besides reading about yours. VEMS has some interest to me however. Have a bud that tunes it. But it seems like VIPEC V88 sounds like a great choice. Can't wait to get started....but I need to get a few projects out of the way first....

      Thanks for the input!!
      Don

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      • #18
        Originally posted by dcvee View Post
        Yeah I've already witnessed some Megasquirt messes....besides reading about yours. VEMS has some interest to me however. Have a bud that tunes it. But it seems like VIPEC V88 sounds like a great choice. Can't wait to get started....but I need to get a few projects out of the way first....

        Thanks for the input!!
        Don
        Megasquirt messes are due to the individual - not the system

        Personally, I haven't heard great things about VEMS. If you're paying someone to do it for you, do VIPEC, Motec, Pectel, Syvecs, AEM, etc...
        sigpic
        Track Car Build | COM Sports Car Club

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Brendan View Post
          Megasquirt messes are due to the individual - not the system

          Personally, I haven't heard great things about VEMS. If you're paying someone to do it for you, do VIPEC, Motec, Pectel, Syvecs, AEM, etc...
          Agree on the MS...not trying to imply MS doesn't "work". Unfortunately, at the low end of the price scale you get a lot of folks messing with it, that shouldn't be. You end up with a mega-mess. The only reason I'm looking at VEMS is because I have a bud that runs it....and yes, I'll be doing the install myself.

          Don

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          • #20
            Will the ViPec V44 not work for your application? I know its a little more stripped down, but might be a good lower cost alternative on a 4cyl.

            If you have VEMS questions you can ask me as thats what I have on my M42. I would never consider running MS either....VEMS is far superior in the lower cost hobby ECU type category. The hardware design is significantly better with VEMS in my opinion (all on one integrated board, more features built in, ect.)

            If I had to do it over again though I would probably go with the ViPec mainly for the support. I don't think the hardware is that much better if at all and the software is decent but not leauges better.
            -Nick

            1991 E30 with the "other" 16v 4cyl

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            • #21
              Originally posted by wazzu70 View Post
              Will the ViPec V44 not work for your application? I know its a little more stripped down, but might be a good lower cost alternative on a 4cyl.

              If you have VEMS questions you can ask me as thats what I have on my M42. I would never consider running MS either....VEMS is far superior in the lower cost hobby ECU type category. The hardware design is significantly better with VEMS in my opinion (all on one integrated board, more features built in, ect.)

              If I had to do it over again though I would probably go with the ViPec mainly for the support. I don't think the hardware is that much better if at all and the software is decent but not leauges better.
              It probably will do just fine. To be perfectly honest, I haven't looked at any specs of the VIPEC boxes. I WILL be keeping this build simple too. Custom bottom mount log-type manifold, GT30r, simple aluminum intake manifold and a single throttle body. Stock 2.3 build only over-boring what I need to square up the cylinders. Probably do aftermarket cams. The goal of this car is keeping everything streetable AND useable. The kind of car you can jump in and drive across the country without worrying about a thing except gas money and which states reciprocate on your carry permit!!! If I get 400whp and the ability to run the A/C in any state that requires it, I'll be jumping up and down.

              I'm not looking for traction control, launch control, two-step, etc etc. Just the basics.....I'll look you up about the VEMS stuff too.

              Tell me why folks don't like MAF setups on these builds??? There's some awesome MAF's available....but you know that. Is it just the extra complication??

              Don

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              • #22
                Although I'm extremely slow and probably equally incompetent, I'm going down the slippery slope of a turbo S14. I haven't updated my build thread in quite some time due to being on the other side of getting married. Now that the day has passed, I can look at my wallet again and not feel guilty about spending some money...because that is what has really slowed me down at times. The financing.

                Motor is awaiting final assembly in my garage but it should be able to handle a good amount of boost. New 8.5:1 ceramic coated JE Pistons, Pauter rods meant for boost, larger radiator, larger oil pan...I only want to have to do this once. Contacted Neel early on but only last year got myself a Vipec V88. Very happy with my decision has having Neel around just makes me feel more comfortable. The V88 can also grow with if I want to add traction control etc.

                I'll be doing the wiring myself. Have a reliable fabricator that can hopefully make me a nice SS twin scroll manifold. I'm sure it will get very interesting/frustrating when it comes time to tune the motor under boost using the ITBs but there is enough info on this site and the interweb to get me started. Shooting for 350-400 whp in the end.

                Good luck with the project Don, and careful what you wish for. Things get out of hand quickly though.
                Justin T.

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                • #23
                  Don, MAF setups are actually easier IMO as long as they meter the airflow required and the table for them is known. Its nice to not need to update your VE table each time you make a change. I guess most systems are older tech and the MAF technology available at the time sucked? Not sure. Current MAF technology is quite good though and the flow rates they can measure are enough for blow through setups.

                  After a quick look ViPec V44 and V88 accept MAF inputs. Aparently VEMS does as well through an analog input, although I don't know anyone doing this.

                  I think the main reason most people go MAP is that is the default configuration for many standalones and running a MAF takes extra work. Maybe ask Neel why people dont do it more often? With ITB it would make things much easier I would think!


                  I like your plans for the S14. My build has a somewhat similar philosophy. Not going for crazy power, just some more oomph in a reliable manner.
                  -Nick

                  1991 E30 with the "other" 16v 4cyl

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by wazzu70 View Post
                    VEMS is far superior in the lower cost hobby ECU type category. The hardware design is significantly better with VEMS in my opinion (all on one integrated board, more features built in, ect.)
                    This may have been true in the past, but it's certainly not anymore. The current version of MS is a single board, no assembly solution with automotive grade connectors and a submersible housing (You can still do the DIY boards too if you want....) It includes onboard integrated knock control with software selectable band-pass filtering, individual cylinder knock gain, full sequential fuel and ign control, etc, etc, etc.... It does require an external wideband and external MAP sensor, which doesn't bother me.

                    If you're doing it yourself, and have a tuner that can do VEMS/MS - they're fine. If you're paying someone and don't have a tuner - go with something else. I think Vipec is a good starting point, but has anyone heard much on the AEM Infinity?

                    Regarding MAF - they can be finicky. They need to have smooth laminar flow before and after the sensor. Lots of threads discussing this over on EFI101 if you want to try to go that route.
                    sigpic
                    Track Car Build | COM Sports Car Club

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                    • #25
                      Yeah, best "rule of thumb" is find a tuner you want to go with and use the system they feel is the best for your goals and one they are comfortable with software wise.

                      Yes, I know about MS3Pro. I don't want to do a VEMS versus MS thing so that is not my intention. I think MS3Pro is a good platform for people who are already familiar with MS software and want to support the MS Project/company. For people starting from scratch MS3Pro is basically a VEMS equivilant at a much higher price point once you figure in a wideband controller and ignition box. I think the platform has a lot of future potential and I am excited to see where it goes. Its nice the MS community has an ECU that can live in an automotive environment.

                      Boris on BF.c is testing the AEM infinity ECU. He had a lot of trouble with the primary trigger, which is amazing since the 60-2 format is not exactly new to the scene. AEM has long been plauged by trigger sync errors and it seems they still are. Since those are the most important ECU sensors....that scares me.
                      -Nick

                      1991 E30 with the "other" 16v 4cyl

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by wazzu70 View Post
                        Use a MAP sensor as mentioned. You will probably want to use a standalone that will let you run Alpha-N near idle and cross over to speed density above that point. Most can do this, but its something to keep in mind.

                        Interested to see what you do with an S14 Don.
                        Plus 1 it should be very interesting. Also is it possible to run a 318 4 banger harness from a e36, and tune it using that?
                        Last edited by GG///M3; 07-20-2013, 01:28 PM.

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                        • #27
                          GG, I suppose that would work assuming the parameters for the trigger wheel were the same so the ECU knew where TDC is. None of the aftermarket tuning solutions (with factory ECU) I know of have the ability to adjust this.
                          -Nick

                          1991 E30 with the "other" 16v 4cyl

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                          • #28
                            I'm looking at VEMS first since I got a couple of buds that know it and a tuner that knows it. I'll look at VIPEC next....

                            Have to see what coil setups folks are using?
                            Also, crank trigger wheels?? 60-2?? I can make one and use an OBDI e36 sensor?
                            How about cam sensor?? Thought I read about someone using a "bolt-on" setup from an s38?
                            ....searching continues.

                            Geez. Don't I have enough to do. That's been a pattern my whole life. Making more work for myself. I see no reason to quit now..LOL

                            Thanks,
                            Don

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                            • #29
                              I'm getting closer!! About 2 more months and I'll start!!

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                              • #30
                                Quick update...if nothing else, forum test!! I finally had the time to pull this car in the shop and get it up on the lift. This thing is just too perfect to mod. VIN numbers are on everything, no rust, etc etc. I'm just going to restore this car in 2 phases and drive it on sunny days!! So, I've started the search for another M3 roller/basket case/unfinished project because I will own a turbocharged e30m3....at some point!! So, if you could keep an eye out for me....I'd appreciate it.

                                Meanwhile, after a friggin ROTTEN winter, it's almost spring!!!
                                Don

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