Turbo Talk ITT...

[dcvee]

Time to get this moving. S14 turbo build on the way. Stock rebuild, spacer gasket/with sealing rings to lower compression to 8.5:1. Simple twin "Y" manifold feeding a bottom mount GT30R twin scroll with internal wastegate. 15psi max boost. Megasquirt plug and play using 60-1 trigger and MAP sensor. I'll do all of the electronics first. I will start around June and finish by September. Then over the winter, I'll dissemble everything and do a complete restoration. Should be fun. Follow along as I once again change direction!! Muuuahhhhaaa!!

[dcvee]

I hear ya!! I've built about 12 e36 BMW turbo cars/motors so I know EXACTLY what you mean!! My direction on this project has changed due to the fact that I have a spare S50 turbo built motor laying around the shop...so now I'm looking for a roller/shell for the swap/turbo effort. The REAL issue with these projects is tuning. I know 3-4 guys that can tune obd1/obd2 DME's so that's the direction I'm heading. For now, a standalone is just not in my future and the availability of S14 motors and their value has pushed me in another direction. I will find a roller/shell swap in a M50 based 8.5:1 built motor with a nice little GT3582HTA turbo and have a blast. Nice street/crusing car. Appreciate your input...obviously, I've seen your build and the troubles you've had. What an effort!!

[///schwartzman]

If you're hell bent on going forced induction try sourcing a BMW N20 motor and swap the entire setup... You could change the turbo install a bigger intercooler, CO2 or nitrous and be north of 350hp easily. Good luck, it's not for the faint of heart.

[dcvee]

Quick update...if nothing else, forum test!! I finally had the time to pull this car in the shop and get it up on the lift. This thing is just too perfect to mod. VIN numbers are on everything, no rust, etc etc. I'm just going to restore this car in 2 phases and drive it on sunny days!! So, I've started the search for another M3 roller/basket case/unfinished project because I will own a turbocharged e30m3....at some point!! So, if you could keep an eye out for me....I'd appreciate it.

Meanwhile, after a friggin ROTTEN winter, it's almost spring!!!
Don

[dcvee]

I'm getting closer!! About 2 more months and I'll start!!

[dcvee]

I'm looking at VEMS first since I got a couple of buds that know it and a tuner that knows it. I'll look at VIPEC next....

Have to see what coil setups folks are using?
Also, crank trigger wheels?? 60-2?? I can make one and use an OBDI e36 sensor?
How about cam sensor?? Thought I read about someone using a "bolt-on" setup from an s38?
....searching continues.

Geez. Don't I have enough to do. That's been a pattern my whole life. Making more work for myself. I see no reason to quit now..LOL

Thanks,
Don

[wazzu70]

GG, I suppose that would work assuming the parameters for the trigger wheel were the same so the ECU knew where TDC is. None of the aftermarket tuning solutions (with factory ECU) I know of have the ability to adjust this.

[GG///M3]

Use a MAP sensor as mentioned. You will probably want to use a standalone that will let you run Alpha-N near idle and cross over to speed density above that point. Most can do this, but its something to keep in mind.

Interested to see what you do with an S14 Don.

Plus 1 it should be very interesting. Also is it possible to run a 318 4 banger harness from a e36, and tune it using that?

[wazzu70]

Yeah, best "rule of thumb" is find a tuner you want to go with and use the system they feel is the best for your goals and one they are comfortable with software wise.

Yes, I know about MS3Pro. I don't want to do a VEMS versus MS thing so that is not my intention. I think MS3Pro is a good platform for people who are already familiar with MS software and want to support the MS Project/company. For people starting from scratch MS3Pro is basically a VEMS equivilant at a much higher price point once you figure in a wideband controller and ignition box. I think the platform has a lot of future potential and I am excited to see where it goes. Its nice the MS community has an ECU that can live in an automotive environment.

Boris on BF.c is testing the AEM infinity ECU. He had a lot of trouble with the primary trigger, which is amazing since the 60-2 format is not exactly new to the scene. AEM has long been plauged by trigger sync errors and it seems they still are. Since those are the most important ECU sensors....that scares me.

[Brendan]

VEMS is far superior in the lower cost hobby ECU type category. The hardware design is significantly better with VEMS in my opinion (all on one integrated board, more features built in, ect.)

This may have been true in the past, but it's certainly not anymore. The current version of MS is a single board, no assembly solution with automotive grade connectors and a submersible housing (You can still do the DIY boards too if you want....) It includes onboard integrated knock control with software selectable band-pass filtering, individual cylinder knock gain, full sequential fuel and ign control, etc, etc, etc.... It does require an external wideband and external MAP sensor, which doesn't bother me.

If you're doing it yourself, and have a tuner that can do VEMS/MS - they're fine. If you're paying someone and don't have a tuner - go with something else. I think Vipec is a good starting point, but has anyone heard much on the AEM Infinity?

Regarding MAF - they can be finicky. They need to have smooth laminar flow before and after the sensor. Lots of threads discussing this over on EFI101 if you want to try to go that route.

[wazzu70]

Don, MAF setups are actually easier IMO as long as they meter the airflow required and the table for them is known. Its nice to not need to update your VE table each time you make a change. I guess most systems are older tech and the MAF technology available at the time sucked? Not sure. Current MAF technology is quite good though and the flow rates they can measure are enough for blow through setups.

After a quick look ViPec V44 and V88 accept MAF inputs. Aparently VEMS does as well through an analog input, although I don't know anyone doing this.

I think the main reason most people go MAP is that is the default configuration for many standalones and running a MAF takes extra work. Maybe ask Neel why people dont do it more often? With ITB it would make things much easier I would think!


I like your plans for the S14. My build has a somewhat similar philosophy. Not going for crazy power, just some more oomph in a reliable manner.

[em3emcee]

Although I'm extremely slow and probably equally incompetent, I'm going down the slippery slope of a turbo S14. I haven't updated my build thread in quite some time due to being on the other side of getting married. Now that the day has passed, I can look at my wallet again and not feel guilty about spending some money...because that is what has really slowed me down at times. The financing.

Motor is awaiting final assembly in my garage but it should be able to handle a good amount of boost. New 8.5:1 ceramic coated JE Pistons, Pauter rods meant for boost, larger radiator, larger oil pan...I only want to have to do this once. Contacted Neel early on but only last year got myself a Vipec V88. Very happy with my decision has having Neel around just makes me feel more comfortable. The V88 can also grow with if I want to add traction control etc.

I'll be doing the wiring myself. Have a reliable fabricator that can hopefully make me a nice SS twin scroll manifold. I'm sure it will get very interesting/frustrating when it comes time to tune the motor under boost using the ITBs but there is enough info on this site and the interweb to get me started. Shooting for 350-400 whp in the end.

Good luck with the project Don, and careful what you wish for. Things get out of hand quickly though.

[dcvee]

Will the ViPec V44 not work for your application? I know its a little more stripped down, but might be a good lower cost alternative on a 4cyl.

If you have VEMS questions you can ask me as thats what I have on my M42. I would never consider running MS either....VEMS is far superior in the lower cost hobby ECU type category. The hardware design is significantly better with VEMS in my opinion (all on one integrated board, more features built in, ect.)

If I had to do it over again though I would probably go with the ViPec mainly for the support. I don't think the hardware is that much better if at all and the software is decent but not leauges better.

It probably will do just fine. To be perfectly honest, I haven't looked at any specs of the VIPEC boxes. I WILL be keeping this build simple too. Custom bottom mount log-type manifold, GT30r, simple aluminum intake manifold and a single throttle body. Stock 2.3 build only over-boring what I need to square up the cylinders. Probably do aftermarket cams. The goal of this car is keeping everything streetable AND useable. The kind of car you can jump in and drive across the country without worrying about a thing except gas money and which states reciprocate on your carry permit!!! If I get 400whp and the ability to run the A/C in any state that requires it, I'll be jumping up and down.

I'm not looking for traction control, launch control, two-step, etc etc. Just the basics.....I'll look you up about the VEMS stuff too.

Tell me why folks don't like MAF setups on these builds??? There's some awesome MAF's available....but you know that. Is it just the extra complication??

Don

[wazzu70]

Will the ViPec V44 not work for your application? I know its a little more stripped down, but might be a good lower cost alternative on a 4cyl.

If you have VEMS questions you can ask me as thats what I have on my M42. I would never consider running MS either....VEMS is far superior in the lower cost hobby ECU type category. The hardware design is significantly better with VEMS in my opinion (all on one integrated board, more features built in, ect.)

If I had to do it over again though I would probably go with the ViPec mainly for the support. I don't think the hardware is that much better if at all and the software is decent but not leauges better.

[dcvee]

Megasquirt messes are due to the individual - not the system

Personally, I haven't heard great things about VEMS. If you're paying someone to do it for you, do VIPEC, Motec, Pectel, Syvecs, AEM, etc...

Agree on the MS...not trying to imply MS doesn't "work". Unfortunately, at the low end of the price scale you get a lot of folks messing with it, that shouldn't be. You end up with a mega-mess. The only reason I'm looking at VEMS is because I have a bud that runs it....and yes, I'll be doing the install myself.

Don