Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Engine Rebuild and Scope Creep

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Engine is in the car.

    Fitted a Brise starter, if you order one now it should require no spacer to achieve proper pinion engagement.
    Brise Starter by chris tsay, on Flickr

    Brise Starter by chris tsay, on Flickr

    I pulled and re-installed the motor without removing the hood. I did remove the NLA hood insulation for safety. If you disconnect the lift strut and the arm on the passenger side of the car you can use a block of wood to hold the hood up at 90 degrees. This isn't the most stable arrangement so be careful of gusts of wind if you do it outside. This allowed me to pull the motor + tranny and to re-install motor + bell housing fairly easily. Still needed to use the load leveler when installing with just the bell housing installed. Also going in from the side required me to extend the harbor freight 2 ton hoist to it's maximum reach which derates the load to 1/2 ton.

    Hood position for engine removal/install by chris tsay, on Flickr

    You can barely see the knock sensor installed where the airbag support arm / starter used to mount. I used a M10 -> M8 step stud, couldn't find one that had a shallow enough M10 side so dremeled the stud down to fit.

    Engine in. by chris tsay, on Flickr

    -chris
    1988 M3
    2007 Lotus Exige S

    Comment


    • Nice! Big milestone.
      1988 Lachs - sold
      1988 DS - sold
      Bay Area M3 FB group

      Comment


      • Hi,

        Thanks for posting.
        What is the weight of
        that alternator ?

        I assume you chose it
        because of weight ?

        Regards,
        Anri
        sigpic

        - 1990 E30 M3 DS Shwartz S38-B36 (3.6) Sold ! But never forgotten.
        - 1990 E30 M3 DS Euro S38-B38 3.8 340hp. I promise, I will hide the 2 cyl under the dash which "Engine King". Mr. Paul Rosche took away to make the S14...
        - 1988 E24 M6 Shwartz/Track Toy S38-B36 Goal is close to 50/50 I pushed the engine almost 15 inches for weight distribution will see...
        - 1988 E24 M6 Shwartz/Natur, Daily driver.
        - S38 is an addiction, enthusiastic manner and the perfect match for my E30 M3.

        Comment


        • I assume you mean the starter? The alternator I am using is the stock unit.

          The Brise starter is spec'd to weigh 2.6kg, I did not weigh it myself. I chose it because others with high compression motors had good success with it and also it does not have a separate forward mounting bolt and freed that bolt hole for the knock sensor.

          It's a great place for the knock sensor, centered and on the cool side of the motor. Or at least I hope these things make it a great place.

          -chris
          1988 M3
          2007 Lotus Exige S

          Comment


          • Hi Chris,

            Yes sir in my quick reply I misspelled it.
            Nice weight at only 2.5kg Starter but not
            cheap ! at near 400 UK Pounds.

            You mentioned going to install Knocks
            Sensors are great I assume they will
            be connected to the Stand-Alone ?
            or some sort of alarm of were you are going
            back of the throttle when lights up ?

            I personally find this very complicated to
            tune not that impossible but a lot of tests
            must be performed with a lot of data
            recorded and dyno tests to see HP.

            I wanted to develop this on my S38 engine
            but the money and the time to make it realy
            properly operating will be a lot. The
            L6 is a lot more smother engine even with
            cams. The L4 has more vibrations specially
            with cams, yes on the upper rpms it is smooth
            and you have to address that areas because
            you dont want to be retarding timing because
            the engine has vibrations not pre-detonations.

            I would say if you make this work at least
            50% then great at least is something rather
            than nothing.

            Hope for a lit bit more speed for your project
            towards completion!!!! We need to enjoy this cars
            more than we spent time to Modify and Bastarize
            them.

            Regards,
            Anri


            sigpic

            - 1990 E30 M3 DS Shwartz S38-B36 (3.6) Sold ! But never forgotten.
            - 1990 E30 M3 DS Euro S38-B38 3.8 340hp. I promise, I will hide the 2 cyl under the dash which "Engine King". Mr. Paul Rosche took away to make the S14...
            - 1988 E24 M6 Shwartz/Track Toy S38-B36 Goal is close to 50/50 I pushed the engine almost 15 inches for weight distribution will see...
            - 1988 E24 M6 Shwartz/Natur, Daily driver.
            - S38 is an addiction, enthusiastic manner and the perfect match for my E30 M3.

            Comment


            • WRT Knock Sensing, I have been using it for some time now and although it is more work on the dyno, it is not anything like double the work. Probably 10-15% more dyno time for me.

              I suppose it depends on which system you are using. I have Motec M800 with the Motec Standalone Knock Module (SKM). Tuning required the following;

              1, using some software (Goldwave) to do some frequency analysis to find the knock frequency. This is then inputted into the Motec Software.

              2, Then using Motec logging on a conservative ignition setting set the gains so the sensor sees equal signal levels form each cylinder.

              3, Then during the tuning you log the levels of normal noise during tuning and use these to set the threshold for intervention.

              Only steps one and two use dyno time, an hour at most.

              With the S14 and it's inherent resistance to knock, you shouldn't be too close to the knock threshold anyway. On the dyno, you normally see a loss of power due to over advance before you hear knock. But knock control is a good safety net in case of a poor batch of fuel, unexpected lean condition or a failed sensor.
              Sport Evo No.47

              My Sport Evo Restoration

              Comment


              • Hey Steve,

                Thanks for sharing your experience with your Knock sensor project.

                I think the way would have done it is just on the existing present
                condition at the dyno given the time you spent to tune this for about
                1 extra dyno hour.

                If I were to you do this I would spent a lot more than 1h extra on the
                dyno because there are so many areas thru the rpm range and
                what gear are you in and throttle load, how hot is outside, what is
                EGT at present (do you have one connected to your M800 ?) what is
                the load on the engine(road data collected).
                I think there are many factors to consider and areas to cover when one
                wants to make the Tune to be near the edge thru the entire rpm range
                and gain everywhere.
                Heat soak the engine at the track and cover that area as well because
                there might be one only time of were it would happen and then....
                Yet I have never seen melted S54 engine at the track because of knock
                and our track E46M3 has seen 115F track day all day at 8000rpm
                of course with massive cooling work I have done to it because at 115F
                E46M3 last only 3 laps at Streets of Willow before oil and water are in
                red.

                I think form your side of the world the Weather is not as violent as we
                have hear in So. California and even Texas during summer time the
                temp during the day is 115F and its hard on every engine.

                Gas is very bad in California and other places in US, in Texas their is 93 Octane
                available and I only wish to have that hear available of were I can
                fill the gas tank at the pump rather than every time mix octane boosters etc.

                I am amazed how much advanced is the S65 "Knock control system" and makes
                the S54 Knock control system dated already....the more on the edge one
                tunes this the more power you will make in every rpm.

                May be one would not care from idle to 4k rpm but I think S14 need the
                entire rev range to be near the optimum so to benefit every bit.

                What's your thought, Steve ?

                Regards
                Anri
                sigpic

                - 1990 E30 M3 DS Shwartz S38-B36 (3.6) Sold ! But never forgotten.
                - 1990 E30 M3 DS Euro S38-B38 3.8 340hp. I promise, I will hide the 2 cyl under the dash which "Engine King". Mr. Paul Rosche took away to make the S14...
                - 1988 E24 M6 Shwartz/Track Toy S38-B36 Goal is close to 50/50 I pushed the engine almost 15 inches for weight distribution will see...
                - 1988 E24 M6 Shwartz/Natur, Daily driver.
                - S38 is an addiction, enthusiastic manner and the perfect match for my E30 M3.

                Comment


                • I'm not sure the point you are making?

                  I followed the Motec manual and I reckon it was an extra hours work on the dyno. Several hours off the dyno afterwards. Some of the data collection you need to do is done concurrently whilst mapping, i.e the background noise levels. After tuning each load site, download the log and save. Once you have all the load site tuning logs you can analyse the background noise level and input back in to the M800 software plus 5-10% as the threshold level for knock control triggering.

                  This type of knock control is simple. Listen for a noise at a certain frequency, at a certain point of the cycle. Separate that noise from the background noise and set a threshold. Then set what you want the control strategy. Rate of retard until knock signal is below threshold and rate of recovery. Finally set the long and short term trim limits. The knock control system doesn't care what caused the knock (high egt due to lean running, high ambient air temps, overheating engine), it listens for knock within a set of parameters and retards in line with a set of parameters.

                  All of the environmental variables should be tuned for routinely, as best we can with the limited dyno facilities available to the hobbyist (we don't have access to temp/pressure controlled dyno cells do we?). therefore the additional dyno time for the knock control was about an hour.
                  Sport Evo No.47

                  My Sport Evo Restoration

                  Comment


                  • Just found this «old» thread.
                    nice work, love these kind of write ups.
                    Any update?

                    Also the knock sensor discussion is interesting, as my engine also seem to make knock on not very much ign.

                    Comment


                    • I have a knock sensor in service with a Haltech Elite ecu. The Haltech has a built in spectrum analyzer and it needs some short dyno time to find the knock frequency (very difficult to do on the road). I relied on the dyno operator's experience where to expect knock and added advance to induce knock. Set the frequency observed and a frequency band below and above the knock frequency. The knock can be distinctly observed in the analyzer and the load is only held there a split second. The frequency I found is the same, but not exact as other published information I found for advanced degree thesis work.

                      Next step is to set the ignition timing so there is no possible knock (do an overall retard of about 4 degrees). Then with a threshold table have the dyno operator lock the speed at an rpm in the table and record the background engine noise by running up the load range to wot. Repeat for each rpm in the table. Off the dyno, read the log and set the threshold table from the noise recorded The recording doesn't take over 15 minutes.

                      Comment


                      • I bet by now you'd think the car would be running, I hate to disappoint you but never underestimate how slow I can work.

                        I need to finish plumbing the fuel and oil lines before I start work on the harness, to actually have a chance of finishing I may outsource the harness but still build the dash loom myself.

                        Back to plumbing. I decided to convert the oil cooler fittings to AN:
                        Untitled by chris tsay, on Flickr
                        Untitled by chris tsay, on Flickr
                        Untitled by chris tsay, on Flickr
                        Untitled by chris tsay, on Flickr

                        Used swagelok adapters on the 8mm hard lines to convert to AN-6
                        Swagelok fittings for fuel feed and return. by chris tsay, on Flickr

                        And made a bracket to mount where the AFM did to hold the FPR, flex fuel sensor, PS reservoir, and the oil and fuel pressure sensors:
                        Untitled by chris tsay, on Flickr
                        Untitled by chris tsay, on Flickr
                        Untitled by chris tsay, on Flickr

                        Also mounted another pressure sensor for coolant where the coil used to go:
                        Untitled by chris tsay, on Flickr

                        Installed a S54 TPS with the Massive adapter:
                        S54 TPS Adapter for BMW S14 throttlebody by chris tsay, on Flickr

                        Plumbing supplies primarily from Pegasus, using the Startlite hose for oil and the Superflex PTFE hose for fuel. I made a hose from the hardline to the fuel rail inlet and also the hose that connects the FPR to the flex fuel sensor but then I needed to finalize sensor locations before I made anymore. Going to order additional fittings today to finish up the fuel side.


                        1988 M3
                        2007 Lotus Exige S

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X